Episode 8

Kill for Will

For S01E08 - Fromage, we analyze the show with the theme of "intention". What is Alanna's intention, arriving unannounced at Will's home? What of Hannibal's inentions for Franklin, Tobias, and of course, Will? Our characters learn some truths about themselves in this episode.

Rude Eats is hosted by Marie Vigouroux and Jeremy Greer. Follow our YouTube channel for fun videos, episode previews, and full episodes. If the app you're using doesn't support built-in transcripts, you can find PDFs for each episode at this link.

You can hear more of Mary on her Supernatural podcast, Carrying Wayward, or her podcast about Our Flag Means Death, The Gentleman Pirate's Library. Jeremy's podcasts are collected at this website, unless you're looking for X-Men chat in which case you can use this link.

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Our intro theme and all music in the podcast was created by Jake Lionheart (with some help on the lyrics from Marie, Jeremy, and Autumn). Jake is a wonderful musician that can take any idea you throw at him and make it a reality. If you're looking to spruce up your podcast or your weekly DND sessions, get in touch.

Transcript
Marie Vigouroux:

I'm Marie Vigouroux.

Jeremy Greer:

I'm Jeremy Greer.

Marie Vigouroux:

And this is rude eats, a delicious podcast

Marie Vigouroux:

where we sink our teeth into every episode of the show

Marie Vigouroux:

Hannibal.

Marie Vigouroux:

Jake Lionheart (intro music): I want Will Graham, I really do

Marie Vigouroux:

and I think that we could have some fun. Then you can do

Marie Vigouroux:

anything you like. I might even go and help you catch the

Marie Vigouroux:

Shrike. I want Will Graham, I want that man for every meal and

Marie Vigouroux:

on demand. His mind shines and his body's cut. I know that he

Marie Vigouroux:

works for the FBI, but what other man has pure empathy and

Marie Vigouroux:

the ability to see my mind. Jack. What other thing have I

Marie Vigouroux:

ever asked you for besides never looking into my pantry? And I

Marie Vigouroux:

won't get that. Damn. I want Will Graham. I want him so and

Marie Vigouroux:

he really doesn't need to know what's in my meals or on my

Marie Vigouroux:

mind. I just want Will Graham to be mine. I want him, and I want

Marie Vigouroux:

him now. I said before, I don't care how. I'll give him tests.

Marie Vigouroux:

He'll draw a clock, and then his dark desires I will unlock.

Marie Vigouroux:

We'll be together, Willll and me. We'll throw some brand in

Marie Vigouroux:

the parties. We'll cut the flesh. We'll cook the meat.

Marie Vigouroux:

He'll eat the food just like me. Give me goddamn Will Graham.

Jeremy Greer:

Mary this show keeps getting crazier. How are

Jeremy Greer:

you? How are you with Hannibal right now? Where are you at?

Jeremy Greer:

What's going on? What's your state of mind?

Marie Vigouroux:

Okay, well, I mean, so last week, when I said

Marie Vigouroux:

that, oh, there's an episode called there's an episode called

Marie Vigouroux:

fromage coming up. Maybe we're gonna see Franklin die, I didn't

Marie Vigouroux:

think that this was going to happen.

Jeremy Greer:

Sometimes you say things, and I have to just sit

Jeremy Greer:

here and listen to them and not react, because any reaction on

Jeremy Greer:

my part would just give the whole game away. And yeah, maybe

Jeremy Greer:

Franklin will die in the episode named fromage was, was, was

Jeremy Greer:

definitely one of those.

Marie Vigouroux:

oh, my God, I'm gonna make people scream and,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, not even, like, you know, because I'm carrying wayward I

Marie Vigouroux:

do it, but like, purposefully where I say things that I know

Marie Vigouroux:

are gonna tickle people, but here I have no clue, so I just

Marie Vigouroux:

said something.

Jeremy Greer:

You just get into it. It's this episode is a lot,

Jeremy Greer:

yes, and it's interesting to me that it is such a there's such a

Jeremy Greer:

heavy focus on the quote, unquote monster of the week. And

Jeremy Greer:

even with all of that, like, because a majority of the

Jeremy Greer:

episode's focus is that it still reveals so much about will and

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal's relationship and how just weirdly, already weirdly

Jeremy Greer:

codependent they are on one another. It's just fascinating.

Jeremy Greer:

All throughout while we're chasing a serial killer who

Jeremy Greer:

makes you know, vocal chords into violin strings

Marie Vigouroux:

and guts anyway, I think that there's

Marie Vigouroux:

also, like, a change of state, right? So, like, we'll talk

Marie Vigouroux:

about that when we talk about the title of this episode, that

Marie Vigouroux:

just came to me, but like, there's a big change in their

Marie Vigouroux:

relationship in this episode, and it goes from one thing and

Marie Vigouroux:

it becomes another, I think, and it's just like, so beautiful to

Marie Vigouroux:

see it happen. I loved it. I loved it.

Jeremy Greer:

It's really good. It's it's really fun to watch a

Jeremy Greer:

show where they are just like, No, these two characters love

Jeremy Greer:

each other. We're just going to build up to that, right? Like,

Jeremy Greer:

having that as, like, the thesis statement, I think, is, is

Jeremy Greer:

really fascinating, even though it's very problematic

Jeremy Greer:

throughout, and that's kind of even better sometimes,

Marie Vigouroux:

exactly in this case, it they because they

Marie Vigouroux:

managed to do it in a way that is just like, it's, it's

Marie Vigouroux:

delicious, it's just - goes into places that like, weirdly, a lot

Marie Vigouroux:

of people can relate. I find and I can relate. Is that weird?

Jeremy Greer:

No, no, not at all. I think, I think you know,

Jeremy Greer:

because relationships in real life are very complicated, even

Jeremy Greer:

with just friends like take the romance out of it, but once you

Jeremy Greer:

put the romance in, it gets dramatically more complicated.

Jeremy Greer:

And you can have very complex feelings for a person that isn't

Jeremy Greer:

necessarily, quote, unquote, good for you, right? And you

Jeremy Greer:

have to figure that out sometimes, like, sometimes you,

Jeremy Greer:

sometimes you date the bad guys. Sometimes you, you date the girl

Jeremy Greer:

that cheats on you. Sometimes the, you know what I'm saying,

Jeremy Greer:

like, sometimes you just have to work through that. And right

Jeremy Greer:

now, Will's working through a lot of his daddy issues. I

Marie Vigouroux:

I thought it was his mommy issues, but I

Marie Vigouroux:

think, no kidding,

Marie Vigouroux:

agree with you.

Jeremy Greer:

probably with a lot. I guess he's working. He's

Jeremy Greer:

probably working through both just with the wrong people.

Marie Vigouroux:

Do we have any admin this week? Before we get

Marie Vigouroux:

to -

Jeremy Greer:

I don't think so. Just thanks everybody for, like,

Jeremy Greer:

continuing to listen, like, that's it's been super cool to

Jeremy Greer:

have people respond to us on Twitter and to, you know, leave

Jeremy Greer:

comments on YouTube and Spotify, especially, people are

Jeremy Greer:

commenting like crazy on Spotify, and we just, thank you

Jeremy Greer:

very much. I'm, I'm going through and responding to all of

Jeremy Greer:

those. I actually haven't looked to see how they show up on

Jeremy Greer:

Spotify yet. But if you haven't seen my responses, if you don't

Jeremy Greer:

get notifications for that, go back and look, because I'm

Jeremy Greer:

definitely, definitely talking back to you.

Marie Vigouroux:

thank you for doing that. It's, it's always

Marie Vigouroux:

really nice to have like to be to be able to get like answers

Marie Vigouroux:

out to people to say, like, Hey, we're reading those and we love

Marie Vigouroux:

them. Thank you so much. We love the praise.

Jeremy Greer:

Podcasters live on listener feedback. As much as we

Jeremy Greer:

are terrified of being perceived, we also would like

Jeremy Greer:

for you to tell us that we were being perceived. It's a real

Jeremy Greer:

back and forth thing. Do you want to tell us about this

Jeremy Greer:

week's episode? Absolutely,

Marie Vigouroux:

Absolutely, today we are covering episode

Marie Vigouroux:

eight, season one, episode eight of Hannibal, Fromage, and the

Marie Vigouroux:

episode summary reads lector's patient Franklin Froixdeveau

Marie Vigouroux:

worries that his friend Tobias may be a psychopath, but

Marie Vigouroux:

Franklin's growing obsession with Lecter is what concerns the

Marie Vigouroux:

latter more Graham invites the murder -investigates actually

Marie Vigouroux:

not invites. Graham investigates the murder of a Baltimore

Marie Vigouroux:

musician who had his throat opened and a cello neck inserted

Marie Vigouroux:

through his mouth. Graham, with lecter's guidance, interprets

Marie Vigouroux:

this as one killer serenading another. Graham's mental

Marie Vigouroux:

stability deteriorates further when he begins having auditory

Marie Vigouroux:

hallucinations of animals in pain and when his romantic

Marie Vigouroux:

feelings for Alana bloom are rejected.

Jeremy Greer:

Oh.

Marie Vigouroux:

This episode was directed by Tim Hunter and

Marie Vigouroux:

written by Jennifer Schur and Brian Fuller, originally airing

Marie Vigouroux:

on May 16, 2013,

Jeremy Greer:

fascinating. I am super excited to talk about

Jeremy Greer:

this. I want to, firstly, before we get into what our theme for

Jeremy Greer:

this episode is, just give you a huge amount of props, because I

Jeremy Greer:

think it's really, it was really difficult to come up with a a

Jeremy Greer:

theme for cheese, right for fromage, and you worked like,

Jeremy Greer:

from the moment that you watched the episode, you were like, I'm

Jeremy Greer:

gonna put something to DMs. I just want to make want to make

Jeremy Greer:

sure I add to the notes later. Like, you worked incredibly hard

Jeremy Greer:

to come up with something, and I think it's beautiful. I'm gonna

Jeremy Greer:

let you read all of this unless you talk about it, because it's

Jeremy Greer:

all you. I didn't do anything. So I want to make sure when

Jeremy Greer:

people are listening to this, like, this was all your work,

Jeremy Greer:

because it's so smart.

Marie Vigouroux:

We did workshop it together, right? Like, when,

Marie Vigouroux:

when I was writing stuff in DMs? Like, yes, I was thinking about

Marie Vigouroux:

it, but like, you're, you did have some input about that. And

Marie Vigouroux:

I was like, Yeah, that's true. Okay, so let's integrate that so

Marie Vigouroux:

that it's not true, that it, it all came from me. This was

Marie Vigouroux:

teamwork 100%

Jeremy Greer:

we're gonna, we're gonna break each other's arms,

Jeremy Greer:

patted each other on the back.

Marie Vigouroux:

So the cool thing this week is that fromage

Marie Vigouroux:

is, I think, I think a lot of people would know that, but

Marie Vigouroux:

fromage is French for cheese, right? So pretty

Marie Vigouroux:

straightforward, which is pretty cool. But like you said, you

Marie Vigouroux:

know, I have to say that these are kind of getting harder and

Marie Vigouroux:

harder to kind of link to a theme. So we did have to

Marie Vigouroux:

workshop it, and we came up with the theme of intention and

Marie Vigouroux:

intentionality. Because when you think about it, cheese is milk

Marie Vigouroux:

that's been intentionally soured, right? Like when milk

Marie Vigouroux:

sours unintentionally, it's really unedible, and you should

Marie Vigouroux:

definitely throw it out. But when you process it with

Marie Vigouroux:

intention, it can become cheese. And there are, like so many

Marie Vigouroux:

intentions, some open and some hidden. In this episode, there's

Marie Vigouroux:

also a lot of choices that are made. And I, I'm just really,

Marie Vigouroux:

really excited to get into it with you.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, it's, I think it's gonna be an excellent

Jeremy Greer:

theme, because the intentionality of everything,

Jeremy Greer:

like even starting with the the main folk, the main murder,

Jeremy Greer:

right? Like the intentionality of displaying a person as if

Jeremy Greer:

they were a human instrument, is an extremely powerful image. And

Jeremy Greer:

then all of the other characters throughout this whether it's a

Jeremy Greer:

Alana or Hannibal or will to a lesser extent, Jack, who is

Jeremy Greer:

basically absent for most of this episode, is they all have,

Jeremy Greer:

they all have some, some pretty big intentions, and they're

Jeremy Greer:

going to be really Hannibal specifically, has a lot of

Jeremy Greer:

intentions In this episode that we're going to get into. I'm

Jeremy Greer:

very excited to talk about it. I did want to mention something I

Jeremy Greer:

saw on IMDb to Franklin's last name, Froideveaux. Is that? Am I

Jeremy Greer:

close?. I just thought it was, this is comes from, again, the

Jeremy Greer:

IMDb trivia page. It's a word play on the French term for

Jeremy Greer:

calf's liver, foie de veau, which ties into the show's

Jeremy Greer:

culinary theme, in essence, Franklin representing the calf

Jeremy Greer:

afraid of the lion in the room. So I just thought that was kind

Jeremy Greer:

of an interesting thing. Another thing that I think people might

Jeremy Greer:

get mad if I don't mention is that Franklin and Tobias are

Jeremy Greer:

I've told you before that the show couldn't get rights to,

Jeremy Greer:

like, Silence of the Lambs and some some characters that come

Jeremy Greer:

from that. So they're very heavily based on two characters

Jeremy Greer:

from those books that Hannibal kind of manipulates and does

Jeremy Greer:

stuff with. But they couldn't get the actual name. So they

Jeremy Greer:

were just like, we're gonna invent these two new characters

Jeremy Greer:

to do this with kind of interesting.

Marie Vigouroux:

Okay. Okay, I like that. I like that. That's

Marie Vigouroux:

I'm excited to finally watch Silence of the Lambs eventually.

Jeremy Greer:

It's going to be so fun. It's gonna be so fun.

Jeremy Greer:

I'm so curious. I DM'd you yesterday, my sister called me

Jeremy Greer:

and was like, ever since I've been watching Hannibal, since

Jeremy Greer:

she started the podcast and I finished it, then it was like,

Jeremy Greer:

Oh, okay. And she's like, you know, Anthony Hopkins will

Jeremy Greer:

always be my Hannibal Lecter, but this guy's okay. And I was

Jeremy Greer:

like, oh, and that's because she probably watched Silence of the

Jeremy Greer:

Lambs like 100 times before the show Hannibal even existed. So

Jeremy Greer:

I'll be very curious how you take Anthony Hopkins approach to

Jeremy Greer:

this character, versus Mads Mickelson.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, yeah. It'll be interesting. It'll

Marie Vigouroux:

definitely be interesting to kind of see that.

Jeremy Greer:

And listeners, that'll probably be a special at

Jeremy Greer:

some point after we finish the season one. So look for that on

Jeremy Greer:

our social media feeds. Coming soon.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, coming soon. So when we workshopped our

Marie Vigouroux:

theme, that was about a week ago, and last night, I took some

Marie Vigouroux:

notes, and I looked up the etymology of the word intention,

Marie Vigouroux:

right, because that's just who I am, and I think we really got it

Marie Vigouroux:

right, because it actually comes from a Latin word, Latin word

Marie Vigouroux:

that means a stretching out, a straining exertion, or effort.

Marie Vigouroux:

And I'm gonna, just gonna ask you, do you know how to make

Marie Vigouroux:

cheese at home?

Jeremy Greer:

I do not know. I have no I've never made cheese

Jeremy Greer:

at home.

Marie Vigouroux:

so I haven't either, but, like, I've seen a

Marie Vigouroux:

lot of videos on it, and that's something that I would like to

Marie Vigouroux:

try. So I've been looking it up. And in order to make mozzarella

Marie Vigouroux:

cheese, you basically take milk, you heat it up until it sours.

Marie Vigouroux:

So you've got, like, your solids on the top of your pan, and then

Marie Vigouroux:

the whey on the bottom of the pan. You strain the solids, and

Marie Vigouroux:

then you make the effort to, like, stretch them, to let you

Marie Vigouroux:

so first of all, you have to actually strain them with

Marie Vigouroux:

effort, also right, like with the cheesecloth, and you have to

Marie Vigouroux:

stretch the solids until it becomes mozzarella. And that's

Marie Vigouroux:

not something that we could have planned. Like this is just like

Marie Vigouroux:

serendipitous. This is what this means.

Jeremy Greer:

I do want to mention. So last night, I was

Jeremy Greer:

you mentioned that you had you were starting to take notes or

Jeremy Greer:

whatever, so I was looking or you mentioned that you wrote out

Jeremy Greer:

the theme, so I went to look at it, and then I immediately

Jeremy Greer:

copied and pasted and sent it to Autumn, who was sitting next to

Jeremy Greer:

me on the couch so she could read it. Because I was like, You

Jeremy Greer:

got to read this. Like, this is what we're gonna be talking

Jeremy Greer:

about tomorrow. And she's like, Oh, this reminds me of a quote.

Jeremy Greer:

And I was like, okay, and she she sends me a quote that says,

Jeremy Greer:

A cheese may disappoint, it may be dull, it may be naive, it may

Jeremy Greer:

be over sophisticated, yet it remains, cheese, milk's leap

Jeremy Greer:

towards immortality. And I absolutely love that. Apparently

Jeremy Greer:

that's attributed to John Updike, who wrote, cheese is

Jeremy Greer:

milk's leap towards mortality in his book rabbit run. But the

Jeremy Greer:

full quote is attributed to Clinton fademan, who basically

Jeremy Greer:

was using it to describe his like cheese making process and a

Jeremy Greer:

like props to autumn for just having that laying around like,

Jeremy Greer:

just knowing that immediately, but also just it fits so well

Jeremy Greer:

with what I think we're workshopping like again, that

Jeremy Greer:

effort, that intentionality, that straining, that exertion,

Jeremy Greer:

that leap towards immortality, and that's going to play into,

Jeremy Greer:

yeah, exactly where I was going. That's going to, you know, lead

Jeremy Greer:

into, I think, what Hannibal is trying to do with Will, whether

Jeremy Greer:

it's his intention or not. I think in at least one case,

Jeremy Greer:

like, maybe he had some unexpected intention, some

Jeremy Greer:

unintended consequences.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah I think, I think that that's definitely up

Marie Vigouroux:

for debate. Because I don't, I mean, maybe you find out later.

Marie Vigouroux:

But like, I don't think that I couldn't know for sure. I have

Marie Vigouroux:

my opinion on it. But like, Yeah, I think. And just the last

Marie Vigouroux:

little word about cheese here is that, again, that change from,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, solid, from, sorry, from liquid to solid, I think, is

Marie Vigouroux:

kind of like we're seeing the relationship between will and

Marie Vigouroux:

Hannibal kind of happening here. Like some things definitely

Marie Vigouroux:

crystallize, at least for Hannibal, like realizing a lot

Marie Vigouroux:

of things in this episode.

Jeremy Greer:

There's a, there's a moment where he makes a face

Jeremy Greer:

that we're going to talk about that is so good. It is amazing.

Jeremy Greer:

Are you ready to get into Our beat by eat section?

Marie Vigouroux:

Absolutely. You.

Jeremy Greer:

So we're going to start in Will's house, which is

Jeremy Greer:

maybe the most ridiculous thing in this episode. I I'm always

Jeremy Greer:

shocked when I see this. I've watched the series several

Jeremy Greer:

times, and I when I was working on the video. I was obviously,

Jeremy Greer:

like, scrubbing through and tried to try to find clips, and

Jeremy Greer:

I saw this, and I was like, I can't believe this. This even

Jeremy Greer:

exists. He is laying on his floor and, like, just, like with

Jeremy Greer:

a boat motor in his hand, like, like, doing a like, screwing a

Jeremy Greer:

screw into this boat motor in the middle of his living room on

Jeremy Greer:

a carpet surrounded by dogs. And I'm just like, This is not where

Jeremy Greer:

you work on boat motors. You don't lay down on the on your

Jeremy Greer:

floor in a in, like a boudoir pose, and work on a fucking boat

Jeremy Greer:

motor. Like, what are we doing? What is this? What is happening

Jeremy Greer:

right now?

Marie Vigouroux:

I - you know when you, when I read your notes

Marie Vigouroux:

last night, was like, this is really reminiscent of that tweet

Marie Vigouroux:

about David Duchovny being a TA and just lounging around in a

Marie Vigouroux:

whoreish manner in class.

Jeremy Greer:

I love it so much very it's very much lounging in

Jeremy Greer:

a whorish manner is what Will Graham is doing here. He hears a

Jeremy Greer:

noise, and he goes outside to investigate it. It seems like

Jeremy Greer:

it's a it's a hurt animal of some kind.

Marie Vigouroux:

I thought it was a stag. I might be wrong,

Marie Vigouroux:

but I thought it was a hurt stag. Which symbolism!

Jeremy Greer:

Symbolism! He wanders around in the woods for

Jeremy Greer:

a while, but he we don't see him. See anything, and we cut

Jeremy Greer:

over to Tobias, who is teaching a student how to play the cello.

Jeremy Greer:

And they begin to talk about the strings, the student's

Jeremy Greer:

complaining that the strings are too rough on his fingers and he

Jeremy Greer:

should be allowed to learn on the easier strings. And the

Jeremy Greer:

student asks, Are they really made from cat gut? And Tobias

Jeremy Greer:

says, not always. And we get this relatively long, and what I

Jeremy Greer:

consider a soft montage with this, like soft music playing,

Jeremy Greer:

and this beautiful imagery of him turning human intestines

Jeremy Greer:

into strings for his strength instruments.

Marie Vigouroux:

And I loved it. So beautiful.

Jeremy Greer:

I've been so worried. Because when we started

Jeremy Greer:

the podcast, you were like, you know, sometimes the gore and

Jeremy Greer:

things really ick me out. And so every time we get to an episode,

Jeremy Greer:

I'm like, This is gonna be it. This is gonna be the one that

Jeremy Greer:

Mary freaks out on. And it has not happened yet. But it hasn't

Jeremy Greer:

happened yet.

Marie Vigouroux:

I'm so scared because, and you know what, when

Marie Vigouroux:

it happens, it's gonna be the most innocuous thing, and you're

Marie Vigouroux:

gonna be like, Oh, okay.

Jeremy Greer:

this is what bothers her? Okay.

Marie Vigouroux:

okay, all right, let's, let's, let's move

Marie Vigouroux:

on. But yeah, I just, it was just like, so surprising to me,

Marie Vigouroux:

though, on my first watch, because I was like, What is

Marie Vigouroux:

going on? And then, and then, honestly, I had this aha moment

Marie Vigouroux:

where I was like, oh, that's what the look between them was

Marie Vigouroux:

in the last episode, like when they meet at the at the hunger

Marie Vigouroux:

relief charity. I was like, Oh, that was a lingering look that

Marie Vigouroux:

they gave each other. But I didn't mention it, because I was

Marie Vigouroux:

like, Maybe I'm just reading too much into this. But no, no, no,

Marie Vigouroux:

they they they knew they knew!

Jeremy Greer:

they knew! they knew what was about to happen

Jeremy Greer:

this that was a, you know, one one predator looking into

Jeremy Greer:

another predator, right?

Marie Vigouroux:

Exactly. And they and the show works over

Marie Vigouroux:

time to really make that parallel to right, like, because

Marie Vigouroux:

this montage is very similar to the ones of Hannibal cooking.

Jeremy Greer:

Yes, exactly. Just not. It's just, it's not

Jeremy Greer:

culinary, right? This is the first time we've seen one of

Jeremy Greer:

these montages that didn't end up with a delicious plate of

Jeremy Greer:

food on the other side.

Marie Vigouroux:

But it's beautiful music. And I'm just

Marie Vigouroux:

like, oh yeah.

Jeremy Greer:

we get our intro, and then we return to will, who

Jeremy Greer:

is now called Alana, over to help look for this injured

Jeremy Greer:

animal, even though he kind of tells her, like, if it wasn't,

Jeremy Greer:

if it wasn't a coyote, coyotes probably got it, and if it was a

Jeremy Greer:

coyote, coyotes probably still got it. And she cut and she kind

Jeremy Greer:

of looks at him as like, did you call me over to collect animal

Jeremy Greer:

parts, and he says, Did you think it was a date? And this is

Jeremy Greer:

when they kind of flirt back and forth about, like, do you date?

Jeremy Greer:

Oh, what makes you think that I don't date? Alana says she's not

Jeremy Greer:

really the type of person to date. And then eventually they

Jeremy Greer:

just kind of are like, Oh, we can't find this wounded animal,

Jeremy Greer:

like, we've gone in a big circle. I guess I'll save my

Jeremy Greer:

will, Alana stuff for a little a little bit later. Because, like,

Jeremy Greer:

this is cute, but like, this isn't probably the moment to get

Jeremy Greer:

into, I guess. But I do have a lot of thoughts on will, and

Jeremy Greer:

Alana.

Marie Vigouroux:

I'm really excited to hear that, but I have

Marie Vigouroux:

to say, like, when I first watched this, I was like, this

Marie Vigouroux:

has like, I need your help because there's a spider in my

Marie Vigouroux:

apartment vibe. I was like, Oh, this is definitely what's going

Marie Vigouroux:

on right now.

Jeremy Greer:

We go, we go to Hannibal's office, where it is

Jeremy Greer:

time for Franklin's next appointment. You can tell that

Jeremy Greer:

he's very hurt that Hannibal has not allowed him, allowed them to

Jeremy Greer:

be friends, and he does some, like, real passive aggressive,

Jeremy Greer:

because you're not, you're not, you're obviously not comfortable

Jeremy Greer:

with that kind of verbiage, and Hannibal, you could tell

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal is just completely bored with this, until Franklin

Jeremy Greer:

starts talking about Tobias. Franklin says that since they

Jeremy Greer:

can't be friends, they've just. He's decided to look at his own

Jeremy Greer:

friends through Hannibal Lecter's lens. So he Googled

Jeremy Greer:

what a psychopath is, and started checking boxes that

Jeremy Greer:

Tobias fits. And was shocked at how many he checked. And again

Jeremy Greer:

throughout this, Hannibal just looks kind of bored, and I love

Jeremy Greer:

because, Franklin says something to the extend here of like, you

Jeremy Greer:

know, we can keep talking about Tobias, unless you would rather

Jeremy Greer:

talk about me and Hannibal's is, like, not at all. It's up to

Jeremy Greer:

you. No worries. So, mean.

Marie Vigouroux:

I mean, I, you know, okay, so I like that

Marie Vigouroux:

attitude, of like, you know, what, if you are going to be a

Marie Vigouroux:

baby about this, then I am going to let you and you are going to

Marie Vigouroux:

waste your time in therapy that you pay for doing something that

Marie Vigouroux:

you don't that is not really useful to you. Yes, yeah,

Marie Vigouroux:

absolutely. And I just, I kind of like that, that, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

basically being like, I am not responsible for what you choose

Marie Vigouroux:

to do in in here, which is something that kind of comes

Marie Vigouroux:

back later. I'm so sorry there there's clearly something going

Marie Vigouroux:

on at the church, because the bells are a-ringin'.

Jeremy Greer:

It was like, is somebody playing a video game

Jeremy Greer:

behind you? Like, what is that?

Marie Vigouroux:

No.

Jeremy Greer:

Just the church folks are out.

Marie Vigouroux:

The church. The church folks are out.

Jeremy Greer:

Okay. Excellent.

Marie Vigouroux:

It's Sunday morning. We're talking about

Marie Vigouroux:

Hannibal. Some people are going to church.

Jeremy Greer:

Really got to question our lifestyles at some

Jeremy Greer:

point, guys really gotta wonder

Marie Vigouroux:

I'm good, very good. Thank you.

Jeremy Greer:

I don't need to go to the church. I can promise

Jeremy Greer:

you, church doesn't need me. I can just go ahead and say that

Jeremy Greer:

out loud,

Marie Vigouroux:

but there's a line that Hannibal has that I

Jeremy Greer:

Excellent. And, yeah, so Franklin wonders if he

Jeremy Greer:

really love here about like he says, psychopaths are not crazy.

Jeremy Greer:

could be a psychopath, and Hannibal is just like, Nah,

Jeremy Greer:

They're fully aware of what they do and the consequences of those

Jeremy Greer:

actions. And I really want us to remember this, because this is,

Jeremy Greer:

I think, the thesis statement, like the statement of intent,

Jeremy Greer:

right? Haha, theme for this episode, and I'm gonna be

Jeremy Greer:

bringing it up later.

Jeremy Greer:

you're not a psychopath, but you may be attracted to them, which,

Jeremy Greer:

of course, he has this, you know this, this, this attachment to

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal. He has this attachment to Tobias. And we both, we now

Jeremy Greer:

know both of them are probably psychopaths of some form or the

Jeremy Greer:

other, right? I know time to go find our kill. So we cut over to

Jeremy Greer:

a music hall where we see this member of the orchestra from the

Jeremy Greer:

brass section is dead. This is a another reference to some, some

Jeremy Greer:

stuff that happens in the books. Just Hannibal goes to a,

Jeremy Greer:

basically a performance, and is like, there's one guy in the in

Jeremy Greer:

the brass section that doesn't play on key or something, so he

Jeremy Greer:

just murders him to make the orchestra better. There's a -

Marie Vigouroux:

He's such a drama queen.

Jeremy Greer:

He really is. And there's, there's, he references

Jeremy Greer:

this when he meets Tobias later, when he's like, you know, it's

Jeremy Greer:

not such a bad thing for the orchestra that he died or

Jeremy Greer:

whatever. So that's, again, just a direct reference to some stuff

Jeremy Greer:

that happens. But here we see this member of the orchestra. He

Jeremy Greer:

has been his vocal cords have been exposed. A cello neck has

Jeremy Greer:

been stuffed into his mouth. He's literally been turned into

Jeremy Greer:

a human instrument. And it's very, very evocative. This is

Jeremy Greer:

one of my favorite kills on the show period. Like, I think this

Jeremy Greer:

is just really, just so beautifully gory.

Marie Vigouroux:

It really is. And I think, yeah, I I'm also

Marie Vigouroux:

surprised at how little I'm grossed out at this. I think

Marie Vigouroux:

it's maybe making me ask some questions about myself. But I

Marie Vigouroux:

did. I found it again. I was fascinated with this corpse, the

Marie Vigouroux:

same way that I was fascinated with the wound man, right?

Jeremy Greer:

It's again, finding that beauty and death

Jeremy Greer:

and calling this, like, later when, or as we reference in the

Jeremy Greer:

I think the episode description, like, calling this a serenade, I

Jeremy Greer:

think is also very, very beautiful. Like, you know, I'm

Jeremy Greer:

going to use this to attract you to me, right? Like, I'm going

Jeremy Greer:

to, like, specifically make this. Jack here looks over at

Jeremy Greer:

will and is wondering if it's easier for will to look this has

Jeremy Greer:

been kind of a thing that's happened over the last few

Jeremy Greer:

episodes where Will has complained that looking at

Jeremy Greer:

these, at these brutal killings, having to put his mind in the

Jeremy Greer:

perspective of a serial killer, is wearing down on him. It's

Jeremy Greer:

causing him emotional and mental anguish. And Jack here is very

Jeremy Greer:

dismissive, where he says, you know, it looks, seems like it's

Jeremy Greer:

getting easier for you to look. And was like, like, literally

Jeremy Greer:

chewing pills, as he's saying this, it's like, it's not, it's

Jeremy Greer:

not any easier. I just shake it off and keep on looking, which

Jeremy Greer:

is not a good thing, I think, for your mental health.

Marie Vigouroux:

right? And that's the thing. Like he's been

Marie Vigouroux:

hearing his imaginary moose when he's awake now too, right? So,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, there's like, you know, the episode description says

Marie Vigouroux:

that his mental state deteriorates, and that's like,

Marie Vigouroux:

we're seeing him devolve, like in front of our eyes.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, not good. Not good at all.

Marie Vigouroux:

No. And Will says that the killer brought the

Marie Vigouroux:

victim here to put on a show. And this is another thing that I

Marie Vigouroux:

want to come back to. And which ties in really nicely with our

Marie Vigouroux:

theme of performance. Last week when we met Tobias.

Jeremy Greer:

I know right? Like I was thinking the whole time

Jeremy Greer:

this was happening. I was like, we just got finished talking

Jeremy Greer:

about performance, and then Will's gonna literally play a

Jeremy Greer:

dead body now. So like,

Marie Vigouroux:

we're really good. We're really good.

Jeremy Greer:

They clear out and allow will to do his thing. We

Jeremy Greer:

get for the first time in what I think is an episode or two, we

Jeremy Greer:

see the pendulum and we see these things start to reverse.

Jeremy Greer:

He does a cute little hop to get off the stage. I don't know why

Jeremy Greer:

this fascinates me so much, but like I don't I don't know if

Jeremy Greer:

this was filmed backwards. It looks like it was filmed with

Jeremy Greer:

him just walking backwards and hopping off the stage instead of

Jeremy Greer:

just filmed him hopping onto and then then reversing it.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yes, I wondered about that too, but it was

Marie Vigouroux:

beautiful, no matter how what it what was done. I agree.

Jeremy Greer:

Cute, cute little hop. He sits in the audience,

Jeremy Greer:

and then he begins to open this man's throat, he says. He open

Jeremy Greer:

it from the outside to expose the vocal cords, and then he

Jeremy Greer:

opens it from the neck from the inside, using the neck of a

Jeremy Greer:

cello, he discovers there's powder on the room, and it's

Jeremy Greer:

rosin from the from the bow that was used. There's a quick cut to

Jeremy Greer:

Beverly here, like slapping the bow and like powder coming out,

Jeremy Greer:

like she's a gymnast, or like, warming up for the bars. It's

Jeremy Greer:

just very weird shot for some reason. And will further

Jeremy Greer:

narrates, I want to play him. I wanted to create a sound. My

Jeremy Greer:

sound. This is my design. We haven't heard the design line in

Jeremy Greer:

quite some time, which is so much fun.

Marie Vigouroux:

I know I know.

Jeremy Greer:

Alternate name for this podcast was almost Grand

Jeremy Greer:

Designs.

Marie Vigouroux:

Grand Designs! Oh my god.

Jeremy Greer:

And I just, and I just was worried about being

Jeremy Greer:

sued by the BBC for the show, Grand Designs existing.

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh my God, so many possible like, lawsuits on

Marie Vigouroux:

this podcast, what's going on? I think that the shot with the

Marie Vigouroux:

rosin might have been just to explain what rosin is right to

Marie Vigouroux:

people very quickly. Because, like, I didn't know what rosin

Marie Vigouroux:

was until my son started playing the violin, right? Like, I no

Marie Vigouroux:

clue what it was. And so I think this kind of showed, oh, okay,

Marie Vigouroux:

it's a powder that you put on the bow in order to, you know,

Marie Vigouroux:

whatever.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, in order, in order for it to play better, in

Jeremy Greer:

order for it to slot across the strings easier.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yes there you go, to slide across the string.

Marie Vigouroux:

This is, like, I don't know this stuff, like, I just, I get told

Marie Vigouroux:

to buy the rosin, and I buy the rosin, and then that's it.

Marie Vigouroux:

That's where my involvement stops. But this is also, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

the literal stretching and the effort, like, of the of the

Marie Vigouroux:

killer's intentions, right?

Jeremy Greer:

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I'm just, I'm sure I

Jeremy Greer:

was trying to remember where I learned the phrase rosin from.

Jeremy Greer:

And I think it's a, it's a country song where it talks

Jeremy Greer:

about, if you want to play in Texas, you got to have a fiddle

Jeremy Greer:

in the band. I don't know the name of the song. It's probably

Jeremy Greer:

fiddle in the band or play in Texas or something, but they

Jeremy Greer:

there's a line is, like, you gotta rosin up that bow. And I'm

Jeremy Greer:

like, oh, so to rosin up the bow is to put something on the boat

Jeremy Greer:

to make it easier to play. Like, I just, yeah. So yeah, country

Jeremy Greer:

songs teaching me about fiddles, I guess, so weird. But yes, you

Jeremy Greer:

were right. This is, this is a literal stretching and effort of

Jeremy Greer:

this, this killer's intention. So will begins to play this,

Jeremy Greer:

this, this instrument, I cannot describe to you how much I love

Jeremy Greer:

this discordant chords that he is bringing out of this, this

Jeremy Greer:

dead body, the this whole idea is just so fucking goth and cool

Jeremy Greer:

and amazing, and the music is this, like, deep, like, whoa,

Jeremy Greer:

kind of, kind of noise. And I am just, I don't, I don't know how

Jeremy Greer:

to, like, express how much I love this, because it's so good

Jeremy Greer:

to me. And as he's playing, he looks in the audience, and

Jeremy Greer:

there's the corpse of Garrett Jacob Hobbs applauding him in

Jeremy Greer:

the audience, which is very scary.

Marie Vigouroux:

Well, see, that's the thing. Like, that

Marie Vigouroux:

vision that he's having of Garrett Jacob Hobbs actually,

Marie Vigouroux:

personally scared me more than, like, his reenactment of the

Marie Vigouroux:

mutilation of the body. Because, like, this is basically Hobbes,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, clapping at will, getting into the mind of yet another

Marie Vigouroux:

killer, right? And like, he's, he's like, smiling because will

Marie Vigouroux:

is doing such a good job, and he's clapping at the good work

Marie Vigouroux:

that he's doing, thinking like a killer. And I'm like, That can't

Marie Vigouroux:

be good. That can't be good for will.

Jeremy Greer:

We uh, and we need to remember this moment for when

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal's gonna ask will later, like, what does he see behind

Jeremy Greer:

closed eyes? And Will says, Will closes his eyes, and he sees

Jeremy Greer:

this. He sees Garrett, Jacob Hobbs in the in the audience.

Jeremy Greer:

And then he opens his eyes and he tells Hannibal, I see myself.

Jeremy Greer:

So there's this,

Marie Vigouroux:

I have so many thoughts.

Jeremy Greer:

I know there's that direct connection between

Jeremy Greer:

you know, Will's empathy, his like superpower empathy of these

Jeremy Greer:

people, being able to see into the minds of these people in

Jeremy Greer:

those and those minds, being inside of his own mind. And

Jeremy Greer:

yeah, that, I think this is absolutely more terrifying than

Jeremy Greer:

like playing a dead body instrument, because it's so

Jeremy Greer:

scary. The implications, right? The implications, I don't know

Jeremy Greer:

if you've ever seen It's Always Sunny. There's a really good

Jeremy Greer:

joke about implications on that, on that show that. Is very, very

Jeremy Greer:

funny.

Marie Vigouroux:

No, I haven't, but ugh.

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal is back over at Bedelia's and talking

Jeremy Greer:

about Franklin. He wants to refer Franklin to another

Jeremy Greer:

doctor, because Franklin's obsession with him, with

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal is getting in the way of Franklin's therapy, and we

Jeremy Greer:

learned that Hannibal refused bedelias referral. He felt

Jeremy Greer:

protective over her because she was attacked by a patient, and

Jeremy Greer:

she, she kind of is trying to, like, shut him down on this

Jeremy Greer:

saying, like, I'm your psychiatrist. You are not mine.

Jeremy Greer:

But just learning more about this relationship, I think, is,

Jeremy Greer:

it's, it's, it's like, what the fuck is going on between these

Jeremy Greer:

two? Like, are they?

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh, for sure, yes, there you go. Like, I think

Marie Vigouroux:

that to me, like, conjured up so many questions, because I was

Marie Vigouroux:

like, oh, okay, so there is more to that relationship. Anyway, I

Marie Vigouroux:

have thoughts. There's notes later on. I don't want to get

Marie Vigouroux:

into this now. That's too much. It's too much.

Jeremy Greer:

We, we jump to the morgue, and we our ERT team

Jeremy Greer:

notes that there's olive oil on this body and will, I love the

Jeremy Greer:

positioning of this, because these, you know, our ERT people

Jeremy Greer:

are standing up. They're in, you know, white lab coats. They're

Jeremy Greer:

investigating the body like they're in professional mode,

Jeremy Greer:

but like, Will is sitting like, in like, on the side, sweating,

Jeremy Greer:

just looking like a weird little gremlin. And as they're, like,

Jeremy Greer:

talking about him, and like, he looks over, he's like, I had to

Jeremy Greer:

open you up to get the sound out of you. And like, all of the ERT

Jeremy Greer:

people are like, What in the fuck is this man talking about?

Jeremy Greer:

Like, what is happening?

Marie Vigouroux:

It's just so creepy. Like, will you have to

Marie Vigouroux:

stop talking like you're the one who killed the victim of a

Marie Vigouroux:

really gruesome murder?

Jeremy Greer:

They discussed like what vocal cords are made

Jeremy Greer:

of, because these vocal cords were treated like they were

Jeremy Greer:

specifically treated like cat gut, which Beverly knows because

Jeremy Greer:

she plays the violin and will once again, chimes in. This is a

Jeremy Greer:

skilled musician tried a new instrument. I'm just like will,

Jeremy Greer:

please. Can you keep this to yourself

Marie Vigouroux:

again, it's so creepy. Will you have to stop

Marie Vigouroux:

praising serial killers?

Jeremy Greer:

He's so impressed with them, you got to chill out.

Jeremy Greer:

We jump from here, here to a will at Hannibal's office, and

Jeremy Greer:

they are discussing the case like they do. It's not

Jeremy Greer:

specifically said, but like Hannibal must be enjoying this

Jeremy Greer:

so much, like they have to imagine, like not even being

Jeremy Greer:

able to insert himself in his own investigations, but being

Jeremy Greer:

able to literally assist the FBI in catching other killers is

Jeremy Greer:

gotta be just the highlight of his life. And some of the dialog

Jeremy Greer:

here is incredible, like, where he they kind of talk back and

Jeremy Greer:

forth, and he says every life is a piece of music, like music we

Jeremy Greer:

are. I think he says finite and unique arrangements, which is a

Jeremy Greer:

very eloquent way of saying that we're all going to die one day,

Jeremy Greer:

I think.

Marie Vigouroux:

yeah, I think so. And I think it ties into,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, the conversation that he's going to have Tobias later

Marie Vigouroux:

about, you know, playing between conventional notes.

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal asked specifically about olive oil,

Jeremy Greer:

because that was what was used to treat cat cut like 100 years

Jeremy Greer:

ago. And he tells will that it was, it was used to create a

Jeremy Greer:

sweeter and more melodic sound. And this is when Will says, I

Jeremy Greer:

hear what he was playing, when I behind my eyes, when I closed

Jeremy Greer:

them. And Hannibal asks, What do you see behind closed eyes? And

Jeremy Greer:

will closes his eyes, and as I mentioned earlier, sees Garrett

Jeremy Greer:

Jacob Hobbs opens them and says, He sees himself. I love this.

Jeremy Greer:

This is so - will, I'm so sorry for what's happening to you, my

Jeremy Greer:

friend.

Marie Vigouroux:

I know right, like, and I know that the

Marie Vigouroux:

intention here is like, for will to conceal that he's seeing

Marie Vigouroux:

Garrett Jacob Hobbs, right? Like he's trying to hide that from

Marie Vigouroux:

Hannibal. But I also feel like equating Garrett Jacob Hobbs

Marie Vigouroux:

with himself also makes a lot of sense. So like, no matter what

Marie Vigouroux:

his intention really was like, I think the message is clear to me

Marie Vigouroux:

as the viewer, because he's again, he's literally dreaming

Marie Vigouroux:

of Abigail calling him dad, like he's basically taking the place

Marie Vigouroux:

of Hobbes in that way. He's also got that feeling that he talked

Marie Vigouroux:

about, I think, last episode, about like feeling like they're

Marie Vigouroux:

doing the same things during the day, right? He also told Jack

Marie Vigouroux:

earlier that he was looking at this job as, like a purely

Marie Vigouroux:

intellectual exercise. But, I mean, you know, I think that the

Marie Vigouroux:

walls in Will's mind are starting to come down. Like

Marie Vigouroux:

we've been seeing it happen for a few episodes now. But like,

Marie Vigouroux:

here again, like it changes from salt from liquid to solid, I

Marie Vigouroux:

find like, it's just like, so present well.

Marie Vigouroux:

That was so good. I like that. Hannibal is

Jeremy Greer:

And remember the one of the first conversations

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal and will had in Jack's office where they talked about

Jeremy Greer:

really intrigued here, because will says that, like, this isn't

Jeremy Greer:

having forts in your mind. And I just looked it up because I was

Jeremy Greer:

curious what the actual line was, and fortunately, I wrote it

Jeremy Greer:

down in our season, our episode one notes. But Hannibal says

Jeremy Greer:

there's no forts in the vulnerable part of your soul, so

Jeremy Greer:

just the idea, like you mentioning the walls are and

Jeremy Greer:

how the killer usually kills. And he goes, like, do you think

Jeremy Greer:

Will's mind are coming down, and like Garrett, Jacob Hobbs is

Jeremy Greer:

obviously moved to that vulnerable part. His soul,

Jeremy Greer:

right? Like they're, and as you mentioned, like he's, he's seen

Jeremy Greer:

himself as Abigail's father. He's basically equating himself

Jeremy Greer:

with Garrett Jacob Hobbs because he's had to look through his

Jeremy Greer:

eyes so much he's he's gotten into, not only did he get into

Jeremy Greer:

Garrett Jacob Hobbs brains, but Garrett Jacobs got into Will's

Jeremy Greer:

brain. Yeah, they, continue their discussion Hannibal and

Jeremy Greer:

will by wondering who the killer was performing for. This is when

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal posits that this could be a serenade to another killer.

Jeremy Greer:

And Will says he thinks the killer was trying to show

Jeremy Greer:

someone how well he plays.

Jeremy Greer:

that he would risk getting caught for a serenade? And I

Jeremy Greer:

feel like this might be giving him ideas for later, like, I'm

Jeremy Greer:

just saying I again, like, 100% that this man is going to kill

Jeremy Greer:

as a serenade for will later, like, I am calling it now.

Jeremy Greer:

Well, I mean, like, if you think about it, he

Jeremy Greer:

kind of already has, if you think about the fake Chesapeake

Jeremy Greer:

river kill, right, the copycat. And if you think about the the

Jeremy Greer:

way that he killed one of the one of that dude, the brother of

Jeremy Greer:

one of the girls that died from -

Marie Vigouroux:

Yes, Nick, right?

Jeremy Greer:

Yes, hung him up on the the antlers, right? Like

Jeremy Greer:

he's he's actually displayed corpses for, specifically for

Jeremy Greer:

will to find and, like we the last episode, he there was like

Jeremy Greer:

three of them that he was literally making a performance

Jeremy Greer:

out of, and just at the end, will decided not to show up to

Jeremy Greer:

the performance, right? He just dropped off a bottle of wine and

Marie Vigouroux:

It's kind of funny. It's kind of funny

Marie Vigouroux:

jetted.

Marie Vigouroux:

because I think I would say, I would describe these as like a

Marie Vigouroux:

means to confuse will in his investigation, maybe, except

Marie Vigouroux:

maybe for the girl that they find on the antlers. But like,

Marie Vigouroux:

it's, it's, it's not necessarily like a gift to will as much as

Marie Vigouroux:

it is like self serving, right? Like, but I really, whereas like

Marie Vigouroux:

to like this killer is killing specifically as a gift to

Marie Vigouroux:

somebody else, to another killer, right? And I just cannot

Marie Vigouroux:

wait for the day that Hannibal kills someone specifically for

Marie Vigouroux:

will, like, because that's gonna happen. You know, it's gonna

Marie Vigouroux:

happen. I'm sorry, it has to happen. There's three seasons of

Marie Vigouroux:

this.

Jeremy Greer:

yeah, and you're right. I didn't, I wasn't

Jeremy Greer:

thinking. I didn't, I didn't carry that thought all the way

Jeremy Greer:

through. But like this, his kills for will have mostly been

Jeremy Greer:

so like, he could get the satisfaction of seeing, will see

Jeremy Greer:

his kills, not necessarily a kill for will. Kill For will is

Jeremy Greer:

now the name of this episode. That's very funny. I love it.

Jeremy Greer:

Oh, I just yeah, okay, whatever we'll do. Deal with all that

Jeremy Greer:

later. We jump back over to Franklin in therapy again, he's

Jeremy Greer:

telling Hannibal that Tobias said, told him that he was going

Jeremy Greer:

to cut someone's throat and play it like a violin. And then, of

Jeremy Greer:

course, the kill happened. And Franklin is worried, like, do I

Jeremy Greer:

have to report it? Like, what do I do? You know, I don't know

Jeremy Greer:

what to do in this situation. And Hannibal gives him advice, I

Jeremy Greer:

guess. Well,

Marie Vigouroux:

Hannibal is like, Well, do you have any

Marie Vigouroux:

reason not to like? He's kind of like, yes, you have to report

Marie Vigouroux:

this. And Franklin goes like, but what if I'm wrong? I'm

Marie Vigouroux:

always wrong. And you can just tell that Hannibal is like, damn

Marie Vigouroux:

it, the one time he won't let himself be manipulated. He's so

Marie Vigouroux:

done with this.

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal wonders why Tobias told Franklin this,

Jeremy Greer:

and Franklin says, in a very obvious moment of distress, says

Jeremy Greer:

that he thinks Tobias told him this so that Franklin would tell

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal.

Marie Vigouroux:

Which is so chilling, because it means that

Marie Vigouroux:

either Tobias, like befriended Franklin, or he has remained

Marie Vigouroux:

friends with him, only to have a direct line to Hannibal. And

Marie Vigouroux:

I'm, I'm, I'm feeling protective of Hannibal. Now, he didn't ask

Marie Vigouroux:

for any of this, like he would very much like his name to be

Marie Vigouroux:

excluded from this conversation.

Jeremy Greer:

We've seen Hannibal kill like seven people

Jeremy Greer:

on this podcast, on this podcast so far, I don't did you feel

Jeremy Greer:

protective of the literal cannibal who's mentally

Jeremy Greer:

manipulative, like, what are you doing? What are you doing?

Marie Vigouroux:

I don't know.

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal decides it's time to visit Tobias. So he

Jeremy Greer:

goes to Tobias shop, silencing the bell that's on the door on

Jeremy Greer:

his way in so he can kind of sneak in. We hear violin music

Jeremy Greer:

playing, and Tobias comes out and they talk about strings, and

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal says that he prefers gut on his stringed instrument.

Jeremy Greer:

He has a harpsichord. And He wonders if Tobias was playing in

Jeremy Greer:

original composition. And Tobias says, Yes, like, do you compose?

Jeremy Greer:

And Hannibal says, Oh, I don't compose. I discover which is

Jeremy Greer:

what he calls the process of playing on a theremin. You. And

Jeremy Greer:

he talks about how it can generate any pitch in its range,

Jeremy Greer:

even between unconventional notes. And I think I may have

Jeremy Greer:

some of that quote wrong here, but I'm pretty close.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, yeah, no, no, for sure. And I just love

Marie Vigouroux:

that the answer of like, seems like we're both comfortable

Marie Vigouroux:

playing between conventional notes. And I just, I have to say

Marie Vigouroux:

that I'm very taken aback by how, like, these two men have

Marie Vigouroux:

essentially, like, told each other what they are in complete

Marie Vigouroux:

code, right? Like this. I'm like, Forget queer flagging.

Marie Vigouroux:

This was killer flagging. Like this is, yeah.

Jeremy Greer:

This is definitely like, like, I don't know what, I

Jeremy Greer:

don't know what the friend of Dorothy equivalent for serial

Jeremy Greer:

killers is, but this was definitely that right, like,

Jeremy Greer:

this is, this

Marie Vigouroux:

I mean I feel like it would be the friend of

Marie Vigouroux:

Hannibal.

Jeremy Greer:

Have you been to Hannibal's dinner party, I say

Jeremy Greer:

to a complete stranger, Have you, have you seen the TV show

Jeremy Greer:

Sandman, or read the comic book Sandman? By chance?

Marie Vigouroux:

No, I haven't.

Jeremy Greer:

There's a there's an episode without going to a

Jeremy Greer:

lot of spoilers, but there's an episode in like, a couple of

Jeremy Greer:

issues of the comic book that deal with a serial killer

Jeremy Greer:

convention where that, like, they all gather together to,

Jeremy Greer:

like, go to, like, panels and stuff. And it's a fascinating

Jeremy Greer:

episode of TV. And the comic book, is it? I mean, it's good

Jeremy Greer:

as well. But like, it just kind of reminds me of this, like

Jeremy Greer:

people feeling each other out a little bit about what they do

Jeremy Greer:

and how they do it. This is when Hannibal jokes about the

Jeremy Greer:

orchestra player. Orchestra being better now that the brass

Jeremy Greer:

player is dead, and he says he's looking for new strings for his

Jeremy Greer:

harpsichord. It's making an awful noise. I like this a lot.

Marie Vigouroux:

Listen, this has, like, I need help finding a

Marie Vigouroux:

wounded animal that I can hear making noise. Again, vibes,

Marie Vigouroux:

right? Like, absolutely. Like, look at will and Hannibal like

Marie Vigouroux:

luring potential mates to their homes

Jeremy Greer:

and we cut from here from them. Like, literally,

Jeremy Greer:

like that idea of luring to will, literally tying a fishing

Jeremy Greer:

lure in his house.

Marie Vigouroux:

I know it's so brilliant. Oh my god. They're so

Marie Vigouroux:

good.

Jeremy Greer:

They know what they're doing. It's so nice to

Jeremy Greer:

be like, have a have a competent TV show that just likes to do

Jeremy Greer:

this stuff. Maybe I may be, I may have a little PTSD from

Jeremy Greer:

covered supernatural for like, 10 years, or something like, I

Jeremy Greer:

may have a little bit of trauma that I need to deal with.

Marie Vigouroux:

I mean, listen again, like in today's date,

Marie Vigouroux:

September 8, we've just started, like, a hiatus from from

Marie Vigouroux:

carrying wayward, and I am just like, it feels so good.

Jeremy Greer:

Just need a little break.

Marie Vigouroux:

I just need a little break from Supernatural

Marie Vigouroux:

like and this, this is a really good break.

Jeremy Greer:

It's a good palate cleanser.

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh, I like what you did there. Very nice

Marie Vigouroux:

entremets.

Jeremy Greer:

Will starts to hear the animal noise again. He

Jeremy Greer:

leans close to his chimney, and then we have almost a smash cut,

Jeremy Greer:

where he goes from this to having torn out a large section

Jeremy Greer:

of the fireplace. And at some point, Alana has arrived, and

Jeremy Greer:

will tells her that he thinks it might have been a raccoon. And

Jeremy Greer:

she looks at him like in a real, specific way, and says might

Jeremy Greer:

have been. And will thinks that, like as he was opening up the

Jeremy Greer:

chimney, that it escaped in the roof. Yeah.

Marie Vigouroux:

So do you know how I knew that there was no

Marie Vigouroux:

animal in the chimney to begin with?

Jeremy Greer:

The same way I do, yeah.

Marie Vigouroux:

Because the dogs did not move. And like, if

Marie Vigouroux:

you're someone who has ever had dogs, you just know that the

Marie Vigouroux:

second anything moves, right, anything the wind blows, those

Marie Vigouroux:

dogs are gonna go bananas, right? And they're gonna feed

Marie Vigouroux:

off of each other's energy and just bark louder than the other

Marie Vigouroux:

one, right? And so that was when I had my dog like that was

Marie Vigouroux:

always my measure of danger. If I heard something and she didn't

Marie Vigouroux:

move, we were good. Like, I was like, Okay, we're good. No

Marie Vigouroux:

worries.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, my dogs are very reactive. So if something

Jeremy Greer:

happens outside the house, God forbid, my neighbor knocks on

Jeremy Greer:

the door, or anybody knocks on the door, then it's like

Jeremy Greer:

instant, like we have to, we have to let the moon know that

Jeremy Greer:

something is going on down here. Like we need to talk as loud as

Jeremy Greer:

possible.

Marie Vigouroux:

Imagine if there was an animal in your

Marie Vigouroux:

walls. You would know, because the dogs would go bananas.

Jeremy Greer:

Oh, absolutely, absolutely they would

Marie Vigouroux:

There you go. There you go.

Jeremy Greer:

We learned that Alana has just shown up

Jeremy Greer:

unannounced. She was just passing through. Will points out

Jeremy Greer:

that she has always avoided being alone with him, but now

Jeremy Greer:

she's just dropping by, and they move close together, and he

Jeremy Greer:

leans in for kiss, which she responds, I can't stop looking

Jeremy Greer:

at Will's just absolutely filthy hands during this entire scene.

Jeremy Greer:

I know it's just like, makeup or whatever, but like, I just,

Jeremy Greer:

like, that's such a pretty dress, so why are you putting

Jeremy Greer:

your filthy hands on it? Like, she's gonna have to go get that

Jeremy Greer:

dry cleaned. Like, what are you doing? And I know that's not the

Jeremy Greer:

point of the scene whatsoever, but it's just little shit that

Jeremy Greer:

really comes to get you this kiss becomes passionate. They

Jeremy Greer:

begin making out a little bit, and then Alana pulls out and

Jeremy Greer:

starts talking about how she's not good at a relationship.

Jeremy Greer:

She's almost babbling, which we haven't really seen Alana do,

Jeremy Greer:

and she says, like, the way that I am isn't compatible with and

Jeremy Greer:

will interrupt her says, the way that I am, and this is a lot, I

Jeremy Greer:

have a lot of feelings about this particular scene, and I

Jeremy Greer:

kind of, I feel like we're eight episodes in to a TV show that's

Jeremy Greer:

on a major network, that's on, that's on, you know, NBC, and

Jeremy Greer:

nobody has kissed, like there's no willthey won't they. There's

Jeremy Greer:

no - the expressed relationship in this show is Hannibal and

Jeremy Greer:

will, but that's one of the most fucked up relationships that

Jeremy Greer:

you'll ever see, and it's not, probably not what like NBC

Jeremy Greer:

broadcast execs are looking for in their Friday night lineup,

Jeremy Greer:

right? Like they want to see a man and a woman kiss. And I

Jeremy Greer:

don't know this for sure. This is just the way that I feel,

Jeremy Greer:

like that this, this relationship is kind of

Jeremy Greer:

shoehorned in here, because I just, I just don't really get it

Jeremy Greer:

like i i can understand him having feelings for Alana

Jeremy Greer:

because she's basically the only other woman that's in his sphere

Jeremy Greer:

at this point, besides Beverly. And Beverly is much more of a

Jeremy Greer:

sister to him than anything, and has kind of, kind of put herself

Jeremy Greer:

in that position with Will, where Alana has kept herself

Jeremy Greer:

distant, which, of course, we all know that if you can't have

Jeremy Greer:

something you want it even more. But I don't know why Alana is

Jeremy Greer:

here at all. I don't get her motivation for this, especially

Jeremy Greer:

with her flirtation with with Hannibal. And it just feels like

Jeremy Greer:

the network was like, no, no, you got to have this. We got to

Jeremy Greer:

have the cis people kiss. At some point. Gotta have it. It's

Jeremy Greer:

been eight episodes.

Marie Vigouroux:

well, my first gut reaction was like, Oh, this

Marie Vigouroux:

is unexpected. Like, I was like, I didn't expect this to happen.

Marie Vigouroux:

And then when the music changes and becomes, like, all cute and

Marie Vigouroux:

piano-y, I was like, Oh, we're doing this for real. Like, this

Marie Vigouroux:

isn't just, like, something that he's imagining, just because,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, I didn't feel like he had expressed interest in her

Marie Vigouroux:

before. So it felt like this kind of came out of the blue.

Marie Vigouroux:

And I do agree with your assessment. I think that this

Marie Vigouroux:

was definitely, like, maybe a network requirement. But again,

Marie Vigouroux:

this is like, what we have in front of us, and so like trying

Marie Vigouroux:

to make sense of that, like, I'm thinking particularly, I don't

Marie Vigouroux:

know why, but in this situation, like, I really relate to Alana.

Marie Vigouroux:

Because, like, one of my beliefs in in life is that, like, life

Marie Vigouroux:

will keep you sending keep sending you lessons until you

Marie Vigouroux:

learn your lesson, right? And a little while ago, I sort of

Marie Vigouroux:

realized that, like, the people that I was attracted to were

Marie Vigouroux:

basically the same person in a different font, and it never

Marie Vigouroux:

works out, because this person, no matter the font, is just not

Marie Vigouroux:

right for me. And so now I'm, I am better at seeing like the

Marie Vigouroux:

person through the font and not acting on my attraction, but

Marie Vigouroux:

like, I think that Alana hasn't fully learned her lesson yet,

Marie Vigouroux:

and I think that's why maybe she was seeking out will, because

Marie Vigouroux:

she's like, Oh, this is the kind of person that I'm attracted to,

Marie Vigouroux:

but I know my patterns, and so, like, I know that this isn't

Marie Vigouroux:

good for me.

Jeremy Greer:

And there's, there's something about the

Jeremy Greer:

about reliving or re experiencing something too,

Jeremy Greer:

right? So she drove to Will's house right after, you know,

Jeremy Greer:

they, and we should note here that, like, from everything

Jeremy Greer:

we've seen about Will's house, it's very isolated. It's like,

Jeremy Greer:

there's, he doesn't live in a neighborhood. He doesn't seem

Jeremy Greer:

to, like, I bet there's not a McDonald's within five miles,

Jeremy Greer:

like, so to just drop by, like, you have to intentionally go to,

Jeremy Greer:

intentionally go to Will's house.

Marie Vigouroux:

She's all dressed up too!

Jeremy Greer:

She's dressed up, so she came here, and, like, I

Jeremy Greer:

feel like she intentionally came here to relive whatever

Jeremy Greer:

experience she has gotten from previous like she, I kind of

Jeremy Greer:

feel like she almost wants to live in this moment of

Jeremy Greer:

uncertainty, like I want to have the kiss, because she even says,

Jeremy Greer:

like, it's, you know, this isn't a relationship. It's just a

Jeremy Greer:

kiss. It's a really good kiss. Like she, she wants that part,

Jeremy Greer:

and also she wants the ability to to back down, which is, like,

Jeremy Greer:

I'm not judging that at all. I'm just saying, like, it's messy,

Jeremy Greer:

like it's a little bit messy.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, it's so messy. But I think you're

Marie Vigouroux:

absolutely right. Like, that's exactly what it is. This was

Marie Vigouroux:

attractive to her while he was he felt emotionally unavailable

Marie Vigouroux:

to her, and then the second that, like, he kisses her, she's

Marie Vigouroux:

like, Oh no, I don't know that. I want this. And I'm like,

Marie Vigouroux:

Alana, you're a lesbian.

Jeremy Greer:

Go take Beverly. Go hang out with Beverly.

Jeremy Greer:

Please. I also should note our mutual friend Mike has been

Jeremy Greer:

texting me about the show in general, and I just want to just

Jeremy Greer:

a shout out to him, because he hates this relationship.

Marie Vigouroux:

Of course he does.

Jeremy Greer:

I think I got like a, like a five minute voicemail

Jeremy Greer:

about this the other day, and I was like, I don't know. That's a

Jeremy Greer:

lot of voicemail to listen to Mike. I don't know. We love you,

Jeremy Greer:

man, thank you. They kiss again. And she's kind of just saying

Jeremy Greer:

it, saying like, Oh, I can't we'll never be able to do this.

Jeremy Greer:

I wouldn't be able to stop analyzing you. I have this

Jeremy Greer:

professional curiosity about you I would be able to shut up. She

Jeremy Greer:

interrupts her with a kiss and says, I am not your patient,

Jeremy Greer:

like he's being not aggressive, but he's been very, like, very

Jeremy Greer:

strong, confident, firm.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, and listen like this is Hannibal's

Marie Vigouroux:

dream, and Alana gets to live it. I just wonder how many fix

Marie Vigouroux:

on AO3 I actually have will telling Hannibal I am not your

Marie Vigouroux:

patient.

Jeremy Greer:

I should go look that up and see if I can find

Jeremy Greer:

it. She eventually says she has to go. She has to listen to her

Jeremy Greer:

own advice. Like she says, If you know I was advising somebody

Jeremy Greer:

in this position, I would, I would tell them not to do it.

Jeremy Greer:

And I'm like, girl, you drove here at a dress, just not saying

Jeremy Greer:

you deserve anything. I'm just saying, you know, you drove here

Jeremy Greer:

in a dress, that's all I'm saying. Yeah, she leaves, and

Jeremy Greer:

we're gonna find out that will is going to run to almost

Jeremy Greer:

immediately Hannibal, which is extremely funny to me.

Marie Vigouroux:

It's so funny. But just to come back to what

Marie Vigouroux:

you were saying about you drove here in a dress, I think that's

Marie Vigouroux:

the whole thing, right? Like, not like you said, not saying

Marie Vigouroux:

that she deserves anything, but she was comfortable with this,

Marie Vigouroux:

with this pining, while he didn't return her affection, but

Marie Vigouroux:

the second that he did, she was like, Oh no, yeah, I don't want

Marie Vigouroux:

this. I don't actually want I just became uncomfortable,

Marie Vigouroux:

right? Like, the second that the relationship changed, like, the

Marie Vigouroux:

second that it went from like liquid to solid, she was like,

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh no!

Jeremy Greer:

I don't want this. Exactly, this was much better in

Jeremy Greer:

my brain!

Marie Vigouroux:

I just want to pine for you. Yes, this is much

Marie Vigouroux:

better in my brain.

Jeremy Greer:

I wanted, I wanted. I wanted one kiss and

Jeremy Greer:

then I'm gonna get out.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, exactly.

Jeremy Greer:

We cut over to Hannibal, who was treating

Jeremy Greer:

Tobias to dinner. They he says that the wine is from Virginia

Jeremy Greer:

and that the Virginia wine is coming up or something. And then

Jeremy Greer:

he just very flatly asked Tobias, Hey, did you kill that

Jeremy Greer:

trombonist? And Tobias says, Do you really have to ask? And

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal warns him, like, hey, the FBI is investigating this.

Jeremy Greer:

They're going to send men for you. And Tobias is like, well,

Jeremy Greer:

then I will kill those men. They come to investigate me, and then

Jeremy Greer:

I'll kill Franklin, and then I will disappear. He says he's

Jeremy Greer:

been looking forward to it. There's so much to love about

Jeremy Greer:

this conversation.

Marie Vigouroux:

I just love that Hannibal is like, don't

Marie Vigouroux:

kill Franklin. Like, it's the tone too. Like the delivery of

Marie Vigouroux:

it is excellent, because it's basically like that meme, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

I can excuse killing FBI agents who come to investigate you, but

Marie Vigouroux:

I draw the line at killing Franklin.

Jeremy Greer:

You could excuse what? Excuse me.

Marie Vigouroux:

It's so good. And they're being so direct with

Marie Vigouroux:

one another. I love that.

Jeremy Greer:

The directness, I think, is the is really the

Jeremy Greer:

appeal here of, like, two serial killers just being able to talk

Jeremy Greer:

to one another, right about not even have the the flags up or

Jeremy Greer:

anything, just just to be able to say no, and Tobias even says

Jeremy Greer:

here, like, Oh, I was planning to come here to kill you. And

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal's response, of like, of course, you were, I'm lean, and

Jeremy Greer:

lean animals yield the toughest gut. It was such a great

Jeremy Greer:

response.

Marie Vigouroux:

So good. And again, like the word animal

Marie Vigouroux:

here, like, does so much work, because we know that Hannibal

Marie Vigouroux:

sees his victim as pigs, right? And so he assumes that, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

Tobias sees his as cats, I guess, right?

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, it's interesting. Will talked about

Jeremy Greer:

this being a new instrument for the killer to play, right? So

Jeremy Greer:

talk to Tobias' kills before now have not been public display.

Jeremy Greer:

This was very specifically a serenade for Hannibal. And so

Jeremy Greer:

it's, it's interesting to know like Hannibal sees kills as

Jeremy Greer:

dinner or as, I think he's the phrasing of like he takes their

Jeremy Greer:

organs because he doesn't think they deserve them. It was in the

Jeremy Greer:

last episode. So yeah, having Tobias see them as, like, raw

Jeremy Greer:

materials for his instruments, for his passion is another

Jeremy Greer:

interesting way, because Hannibal talked a lot about

Jeremy Greer:

changing, turning his passion for anatomy into the culinary

Jeremy Greer:

arts. So they're both, like, treating their victims as raw

Jeremy Greer:

materials for their passions, in a way, which is something that I

Jeremy Greer:

literally just came up with in my head. So I don't know, I

Jeremy Greer:

don't know if it works, but I'm I'm liking it.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yes, it's so good, because I think it's like

Marie Vigouroux:

this idea of like using human beings as an actual resource,

Marie Vigouroux:

like as a, as a, as a primary resource to to for, for what you

Marie Vigouroux:

think goes above their lives, right? And so for Hannibal, it's

Marie Vigouroux:

cooking. For Tobias, it's music. And I don't know why, but it

Marie Vigouroux:

just made me think of like, of war, and how like we use, you

Marie Vigouroux:

know, human beings as, like, shields to go kill other human

Marie Vigouroux:

beings. And, like, you know, like using human beings for

Marie Vigouroux:

another purpose that we shouldn't be using them for. And

Marie Vigouroux:

I don't, this is a big reach, but, like, I'm just thinking

Marie Vigouroux:

about that.

Jeremy Greer:

No, no, that's, that's really good. No, I think

Jeremy Greer:

we're, I think we're both onto some stuff here, Mary, I think

Jeremy Greer:

we're both looking at this in a really good way. Tobias, Oh, I

Jeremy Greer:

lost myself in my notes somewhere. I'm sorry. Oh. Tobias

Jeremy Greer:

says that he followed Hannibal one night and saw him doing

Jeremy Greer:

something in a bus yard, doing it very well. This could either

Jeremy Greer:

be a reference to Hannibal like literally dismembering that dude

Jeremy Greer:

and putting him in the school bus from the last episode, or it

Jeremy Greer:

could be a future kill that we don't know about. Either way,

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal is obviously taken aback by realizing that he had

Jeremy Greer:

been shadowed and he didn't pick up on it. And the cause Tobias

Jeremy Greer:

reckless, it says he's not only endangering himself now he's

Jeremy Greer:

endangering, you know, Hannibal. And Hannibal stands up and,

Jeremy Greer:

like, moves to the other side of the table and is like, standing

Jeremy Greer:

next to his mantle. And Tobias stands up and says, you know, I

Jeremy Greer:

want a friend, somebody that can, you know, that understands

Jeremy Greer:

me. And Hannibal's like, Oh, I understand that, but I don't

Jeremy Greer:

want you to be your I don't want to be your friend. I love this.

Jeremy Greer:

Then, why did you invite me for dinner?

Marie Vigouroux:

I know, right? It's, again, that idea of like,

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh, you don't want me to kiss you. But then, why did you come

Marie Vigouroux:

over? Why did you come over?

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal says he was, he was going to kill

Jeremy Greer:

Tobias, but not from the food. He wasn't going to he I wouldn't

Jeremy Greer:

poison you. I wouldn't do that to the food, which is just very

Jeremy Greer:

hilarious.

Marie Vigouroux:

It's so funny. And honestly, like, I so this

Marie Vigouroux:

whole scene, like, I really couldn't believe what I was

Marie Vigouroux:

watching. I was like, what is happening? Like, because they're

Marie Vigouroux:

being so direct with one another, whereas this show has

Marie Vigouroux:

been so coded in the language that it uses, and, like, it's,

Marie Vigouroux:

it's been hiding the intentions of the characters between a lot

Marie Vigouroux:

of, like, behind a lot of walls. And here, there's just none of

Marie Vigouroux:

that. Like the intentions are just like, out in the open, and

Marie Vigouroux:

it's like, I didn't know that you could create so much tension

Marie Vigouroux:

by just outright stating your intentions.

Jeremy Greer:

It's so good. It's so good. I do want to bring up

Jeremy Greer:

something because I've been fascinated with it for the last

Jeremy Greer:

like, four or five days. But there's a giant painting above

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal's mantle, and it's a representation of Lita and the

Jeremy Greer:

swan, which is a like a classical kind of painting

Jeremy Greer:

that's been represented in all kinds of art over the last,

Jeremy Greer:

like, 1000s of years, or whatever. Brian fuller has a

Jeremy Greer:

tweet that they had to blur this on ABC because it's a pretty

Jeremy Greer:

graphic painting of a swan, literally, like, going down on a

Jeremy Greer:

woman. But the reason I wanted to bring it up is because it's a

Jeremy Greer:

reference to the book. There's a moment in the book where

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal, like, rents a house, and there's all these paintings

Jeremy Greer:

of bestiality in the house, and, like, where's that Airbnb? Like,

Jeremy Greer:

how do you even, like, I didn't know. I didn't know Airbnb

Jeremy Greer:

needed AO3 tags. You know what I'm saying? Like I do not want

Jeremy Greer:

to see the bestiality hotel. But he covers up, He's not, he's not

Jeremy Greer:

into the bestiality at all. He covers them all up, except for

Jeremy Greer:

Lita and the swan. And the quote that he uses is because of it's,

Jeremy Greer:

they call it a specific artist, and I forget her name, but he

Jeremy Greer:

says, there's, there's a real, there's a real passion to the

Jeremy Greer:

colors and a real heat to the fucking is the way he uses it.

Jeremy Greer:

And I just, it's just such an intense, like moment, and the

Jeremy Greer:

fact that they, like, they've read that obviously, and like,

Jeremy Greer:

brought that into the show, and like, had to blur It is just

Jeremy Greer:

very, very funny to me. It's just, I just wanted to mention

Jeremy Greer:

it. So, yeah, I like to get in the weeds with Hannibal,

Jeremy Greer:

sometimes.

Marie Vigouroux:

I just find it so funny that like Brian fuller

Marie Vigouroux:

bamboozled NBC into putting this on primetime TV. Like, oh, good

Marie Vigouroux:

job, man.

Jeremy Greer:

HOW? What did he do? How did he sell this? That's

Jeremy Greer:

probably why he-

Marie Vigouroux:

He had sold it as a like a procedural, right?

Marie Vigouroux:

And then he was like, Oh no, we need to go back to the drawing

Marie Vigouroux:

board.

Jeremy Greer:

This is maybe why he hasn't had another primetime

Jeremy Greer:

TV show. Is because everybody's like, I saw what you did. Like

Jeremy Greer:

you're not gonna get away with this a second time, like we

Jeremy Greer:

know. Tobias and Hannibal are interrupted by the doorbell

Jeremy Greer:

ringing. Hannibal just like walks off and leaves him there,

Jeremy Greer:

which is ballsy right to turn his back on this killer. And as

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal opens the door, of course, it's will, who

Jeremy Greer:

immediately barges in, like he throws his coat over to the

Jeremy Greer:

side, and Hannibal is just left there, like, Well, come in.

Marie Vigouroux:

I love that. I love that so much. It sets the

Marie Vigouroux:

tone. Like, that's rude. It's so rude, and he's just charmed by

Marie Vigouroux:

it.

Jeremy Greer:

It's so good, and it sets the tone for Hannibal

Jeremy Greer:

being somewhat like discombobulated for the rest of

Jeremy Greer:

this scene, right? Like, it's kind of sets this mood. Will

Jeremy Greer:

walks in the dining room and Hannibal tells him, like, oh, I

Jeremy Greer:

had a colleague for dinner. He had to leave on an emergency or

Jeremy Greer:

some kind which is very good, because he's like, has to close

Jeremy Greer:

the door that Tobias escaped from.

Marie Vigouroux:

I just love the parallels here between will and

Marie Vigouroux:

Alana and Hannibal and Tobias because, like, they've both been

Marie Vigouroux:

very clear about their intentions with the person that

Marie Vigouroux:

they're interested in, and they both kind of like, strike out

Marie Vigouroux:

and they end up having dessert together. I'm like, I feel like,

Marie Vigouroux:

I feel like, there's like, a fic there, right? You know,

Jeremy Greer:

there's a there's a moment and not an audience,

Jeremy Greer:

relationship where we had it was in between us dating and being

Jeremy Greer:

married, where we were broken up for a time and we were living in

Jeremy Greer:

different states, and. We were very strongly trying to be a

Jeremy Greer:

friend to the other person, like we're just going to be friends

Jeremy Greer:

despite having dated in the past. And so she would like tell

Jeremy Greer:

me about dates she was going on in California, and I would tell

Jeremy Greer:

her about girls I was dating in Louisiana, and neither of us

Jeremy Greer:

liked it. Neither one of us thought it was a good time. And

Jeremy Greer:

I'm just like, that's this vibe, this entire scene, like, as

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal starts asking, Will about, you know, him kissing

Jeremy Greer:

Alana, why will drove an hour in the snow to come tell him? Like,

Jeremy Greer:

the whole time you can tell he's just like, I don't want to hear

Jeremy Greer:

this. I don't want to hear anything about this. Like, I

Jeremy Greer:

don't want you to kiss her. I want you to kiss me. But I don't

Jeremy Greer:

even think he realizes that yet. Like, I don't think that he's

Jeremy Greer:

quite there yet. So he's just, like, a little bit shaken,

Jeremy Greer:

because, like, there's a moment where he's, like, getting

Jeremy Greer:

desserts out of the refrigerator, where he's like,

Jeremy Greer:

What do I do next? Like, he kind of loses his spot while as he's

Jeremy Greer:

making this delicious dessert. It's incredible, like, it's just

Jeremy Greer:

such a, like, a weird meet-cute rom com moment for this serial

Jeremy Greer:

killer slash FBI Hunter. It's so fun.

Marie Vigouroux:

It actually has, like, When Harry Met Sally

Marie Vigouroux:

vibes, right? Like they're really playing on the tropes of

Marie Vigouroux:

the rom com in in some of these moments in this episode. And I'm

Marie Vigouroux:

just like, how did again, how did they put that on prime time

Marie Vigouroux:

TV in 2013 I love it.

Jeremy Greer:

You almost can see like standards and practices, or

Jeremy Greer:

like Hollywood execs, like watching early cuts of this and

Jeremy Greer:

just not picking up on this whatsoever, right? Just not even

Jeremy Greer:

seeing, of just seeing, like, oh, well, obviously, like, he

Jeremy Greer:

went to tell his friend about how he kissed a girl and it was

Jeremy Greer:

confusing and he got rejected. Like, just not seeing any of

Jeremy Greer:

this other stuff. Will says that he could tell the reason that he

Jeremy Greer:

was he reached out to Alana, the reason he went for the kiss was

Jeremy Greer:

because she could tell that she knew something. And Hannibal

Jeremy Greer:

presses him on it, and eventually will says she knew

Jeremy Greer:

that there was no animal in the chimney, which is, I think, is

Jeremy Greer:

the first time he's like, obviously, he's been

Jeremy Greer:

sleepwalking and seeing things like that, but this is the first

Jeremy Greer:

time he's confessed that this is, like an auditory thing, now,

Jeremy Greer:

that he's literally, like, hearing things that are not

Jeremy Greer:

there. And he even says, like he feels unstable. And Hannibal is

Jeremy Greer:

like, well, that's why you kissed her. You were reaching

Jeremy Greer:

out, you were you were clutching her for balance.

Marie Vigouroux:

And this really feels like maybe will also needs

Marie Vigouroux:

to learn his lesson about the people that he's attracted to,

Marie Vigouroux:

right? you can't just clutch to people for balance. And again,

Marie Vigouroux:

I'm seeing I'm like, I can see the foreshadowing right there.

Marie Vigouroux:

I'm like, oh my god.

Jeremy Greer:

I love this moment because Hannibal changes the

Jeremy Greer:

topic back to the killer. And I love this moment because it's

Jeremy Greer:

something that Alana called out, that both will and Hannibal do,

Jeremy Greer:

which is flirtatiously changed the subject. And this is an

Jeremy Greer:

example of that, of him cutting over to like, oh, I don't want

Jeremy Greer:

to talk about this kiss anymore. Like, let me talk about the

Jeremy Greer:

other passion in your life. Like, catching this killer and

Jeremy Greer:

will is like, Oh yeah, yeah. I still hear, I still hear his

Jeremy Greer:

music. When I close my eyes, it's our song. I don't think

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal likes that either.

Marie Vigouroux:

I don't think he likes it either. Because this

Marie Vigouroux:

has again, like, this has such vibes of like, well, I don't

Marie Vigouroux:

like you talking about this person that you just kissed. So

Marie Vigouroux:

let's talk about something that we both share, right? And then

Marie Vigouroux:

it's like, Oh yeah, it's our song. And he's like, No, not

Marie Vigouroux:

like that!

Jeremy Greer:

Not like this, not like this.

Marie Vigouroux:

like, now I want to kill Tobias even more.

Marie Vigouroux:

You can't have a song with my boyfriend.

Jeremy Greer:

And one of the most fascinating moments of the

Jeremy Greer:

show, Hannibal, seems to hesitate. And I genuinely don't

Jeremy Greer:

know if this is him literally hesitating to say this, or if

Jeremy Greer:

he's playing a role. If this is his human suit, his person suit,

Jeremy Greer:

but he hesitates and he says, you know, I'm fearful to tell

Jeremy Greer:

you this maybe you know betraying patient

Jeremy Greer:

confidentiality, but one of his patients you know, said that he

Jeremy Greer:

thinks he knows the killer, and maybe will should go interview

Jeremy Greer:

Tobias. And this can be taken in a lot of different ways, because

Jeremy Greer:

obviously Tobias just told him, like, if the FBI send men there,

Jeremy Greer:

he will kill them. And here is Hannibal literally sending will

Jeremy Greer:

and to to Tobias to potentially be killed. And this could be,

Jeremy Greer:

like, maybe a little bit of jealousy, right? Like, because

Jeremy Greer:

he's just heard will talk about Alana and Tobias in a way that

Jeremy Greer:

he would prefer will to talk about him. This could be just

Jeremy Greer:

the chaos Gremlin and Hannibal wanting to cause a bunch of

Jeremy Greer:

chaos, which I also think is could be true, and it could just

Jeremy Greer:

be like, I feel like Hannibal wants will to ever since Garrett

Jeremy Greer:

Jacob Hobbs, he's been kind of driving will to understand that

Jeremy Greer:

he is a killer and that he wants to kill, right? Like that was

Jeremy Greer:

some of those conversations we had in the first few episodes

Jeremy Greer:

about will confessing that he likes to that he enjoyed the

Jeremy Greer:

feeling. And I think Hannibal has been driving him to that,

Jeremy Greer:

and this is a way to, like, put him in a position where he

Jeremy Greer:

thinks will has to kill. And I'm curious what you which, what

Jeremy Greer:

your thoughts are on this, because this is, I think, a huge

Jeremy Greer:

moment of the show, and talk about it. Personality too, like

Jeremy Greer:

just to link it back to them, like purposely putting will and

Jeremy Greer:

harms away. Like, this is amazing.

Marie Vigouroux:

Exactly. I mean, I agree with you. I think

Marie Vigouroux:

that this is the most interesting moment in the

Marie Vigouroux:

episode. I think this is really like, for me, what made this

Marie Vigouroux:

episode as good as I think it really is. Because, again, I

Marie Vigouroux:

don't quite know what his intention is, right? Like, why

Marie Vigouroux:

is he doing that specifically? But in I'm just going to look at

Marie Vigouroux:

the possible outcomes here, because I feel like maybe

Marie Vigouroux:

Hannibal thinks that way a lot, like he thinks mostly about

Marie Vigouroux:

outcomes. And there's two possible outcomes here, like

Marie Vigouroux:

either will is going to go and he gets killed by Tobias, which

Marie Vigouroux:

means that will wasn't really worthy of Hannibal's interest to

Marie Vigouroux:

begin with, or will survives and then he is worthy of Hannibal's

Marie Vigouroux:

interest in him, right? And I do - I read the hesitation as

Marie Vigouroux:

genuine, just because of how discombobulated he is in this

Marie Vigouroux:

scene. Like, I think that this is really him, like, just taking

Marie Vigouroux:

a microsecond to think about those possible outcomes. Because

Marie Vigouroux:

I know, I know that you talk a lot about how much of a chaos

Marie Vigouroux:

Gremlin he is, and, like, how much he loves chaos, but like, I

Marie Vigouroux:

am always just amazed at how much he's always aware of the

Marie Vigouroux:

possible outcomes of something, and he's prepared for anything,

Marie Vigouroux:

and so this tension between like, chaos and control are just

Marie Vigouroux:

it's so again, it's so delicious.

Jeremy Greer:

It's so delicious, it's to good.

Marie Vigouroux:

It's so delicious. So he's like, he's

Marie Vigouroux:

like, aware of the possible outcomes, and he's like, Well,

Marie Vigouroux:

if this, then that, and if this, then that, and like, I think

Marie Vigouroux:

that that's also why he hesitates here, because he's

Marie Vigouroux:

fully aware of what he does and the consequences of those

Marie Vigouroux:

actions, like a psychopath,

Jeremy Greer:

yeah. And it's that idea of control, right? Of

Jeremy Greer:

just knowing the outcomes, and then this moment of him not

Jeremy Greer:

being able to control those outcomes. Of throwing it out

Jeremy Greer:

there, I think you're right in that there's that tension

Jeremy Greer:

between him having the desire to see something unexpected, to

Jeremy Greer:

have will surprise him in some way, but also to admit but also

Jeremy Greer:

to control the moment, so that he is literally has control over

Jeremy Greer:

will. And that's the that's I think we're getting something

Jeremy Greer:

that I don't think this show really gets into into a lot

Jeremy Greer:

later, which is that tension of him wanting to control somebody,

Jeremy Greer:

but also wanting that person to surprise him at the same time.

Jeremy Greer:

And that's definitely what's happening with Will, right? And

Jeremy Greer:

that's in this moment of him like, you know, hey, I love it.

Jeremy Greer:

Let it free, right? Kind of like, I'm gonna have to let you

Jeremy Greer:

go, and then hopefully you will, you will come back. But all of

Jeremy Greer:

this plays out. And I think from Hannibal's perspective, I think

Jeremy Greer:

he's almost very confused about why he's doing this. I don't

Jeremy Greer:

think that he, he really, I think at this moment, he's like,

Jeremy Greer:

he's experiencing these feelings for the first time. He hasn't,

Jeremy Greer:

and we're gonna go right into a scene with Bedelia where he

Jeremy Greer:

talks about will, and that's, I think he's, he doesn't

Jeremy Greer:

understand why he's doing this, like he's just kind of going

Jeremy Greer:

with his gut, and then, for the first time in probably some

Jeremy Greer:

time, not exactly trusting his gut.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, that's so true. That's so true. And then

Marie Vigouroux:

definitely questioning, right? Because his intentions were

Marie Vigouroux:

always clear before, right? Like, you know, kill, eat, you

Marie Vigouroux:

know, don't get caught. Whereas here it's like, again, it kind

Marie Vigouroux:

of comes back to this idea, do you think he would really risk

Marie Vigouroux:

getting caught for a serenade? And here he's like, Well, I

Marie Vigouroux:

don't quite know why I'm doing this. Like, why didn't he just

Marie Vigouroux:

send Jack instead? Right? If he really likes will all that much.

Marie Vigouroux:

But here there's like, this thing where he's like, no, no.

Marie Vigouroux:

Will has to prove himself to me. Like, I want to see, I want to

Marie Vigouroux:

see what he chooses to do in this situation. And it's so it's

Marie Vigouroux:

so dark. It's so dark. I love it.

Jeremy Greer:

It's so good. Uh, Hanwell goes to see Bedelia, and

Jeremy Greer:

he talks about how he sees the possibility he's been he has the

Jeremy Greer:

possibility of friendship for the first time in a long while.

Jeremy Greer:

And at first you think he's talking about will as he

Jeremy Greer:

describes someone with the same hobbies and worldviews, but then

Jeremy Greer:

you realize he's talking about Tobias, and his relationship

Jeremy Greer:

with Tobias, who is somewhat similar to him, got him thinking

Jeremy Greer:

about friendship. And then he goes to describe will as

Jeremy Greer:

somebody that is nothing like him at all, but they can assume

Jeremy Greer:

his point of view. And Bedelia is like, by profiling the

Jeremy Greer:

criminal insane, my dude, and I think Hannibal has, like, well,

Jeremy Greer:

it's a good place to start, is in it or something, and it's

Jeremy Greer:

just, it's just such a wild statement of like, oh, this dude

Jeremy Greer:

who is, who is gifted at catching serial killers, is the

Jeremy Greer:

guy that can assume my point of view. Like, imagine telling your

Jeremy Greer:

therapist that,

Marie Vigouroux:

I mean, like, listen, Bedelia knows okay. She

Marie Vigouroux:

knows I you. I for sure she knows that's the first thing.

Marie Vigouroux:

But then I also just love that he's, like, describing how he

Marie Vigouroux:

met a man who's just like him and shares his hobbies and his

Marie Vigouroux:

worldviews, but he's not not interested in being his friend,

Marie Vigouroux:

being friends with him. He just wants will grant. Wants him bad.

Jeremy Greer:

He wants that man, he wants that man like, if you

Jeremy Greer:

think about I didn't mention this in the previous scene, when

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal like, throughout that entire scene, he's preparing

Jeremy Greer:

this like delicious over the top, flamboyant dessert, and

Jeremy Greer:

like he had the end he hands, will the plate and will, again,

Jeremy Greer:

just like with the bottle of wine or with the glass of the

Jeremy Greer:

glass of wine in the previous episode, where he looks so alien

Jeremy Greer:

in that environment that he he's grabbing this, like plate full

Jeremy Greer:

of delicious dessert, and he's like, I don't even know what to

Jeremy Greer:

do with this. So it's, it's kind of fascinating that he picks

Jeremy Greer:

will, who, again, is nothing like Hannibal, but can assume

Jeremy Greer:

his point of view, and that's the thing that attracts it to

Jeremy Greer:

him. And Bedelia describes this as trust, like it's nice when

Jeremy Greer:

someone sees us for who we are. It requires trust, which, of

Jeremy Greer:

course, is difficult for Hannibal. And to go back to your

Jeremy Greer:

point about making will worthy, if will survive, she says he's

Jeremy Greer:

looking for somebody worthy enough of his friendship. And

Jeremy Greer:

she has a quote here about how Hannibal builds walls, but he's

Jeremy Greer:

looking for someone clever enough to get past them. I it

Jeremy Greer:

just so, so good. So so good.

Marie Vigouroux:

I find this so romantic

Jeremy Greer:

between Bedelia and Hannibal.

Marie Vigouroux:

No, but like what she says, but like what she

Marie Vigouroux:

says about like the time that he spends building walls and then

Marie Vigouroux:

having somebody clever enough to get past them. Like, I find that

Marie Vigouroux:

to be very romantic. Like this idea that like Will is basically

Marie Vigouroux:

like climbing through Hannibal's walls as his own are also

Marie Vigouroux:

crumbling like it's just there's something so romantic about

Jeremy Greer:

like, go back to that - I referenced it earlier,

Jeremy Greer:

that.

Jeremy Greer:

So true. And, yeah, I

Jeremy Greer:

but that very first scene where Will and Hannibal meet for the

Jeremy Greer:

first time and they talk about forts of the mind, and will

Jeremy Greer:

looks Hannibal directly in the eye, which he doesn't do for

Jeremy Greer:

most people in that scene. And to like, I think from that

Jeremy Greer:

And, yeah, I absolutely agree with you. I find this extremely

Jeremy Greer:

moment, Hannibal was like, Oh no, this is, this is the man.

Jeremy Greer:

This is the guy. Like, I gotta, I gotta get into this dude's

Jeremy Greer:

brain. And as he did, yes, but Daddy, I loved him. I can fix

Jeremy Greer:

him says, Hannibal, wait a minute. Hold up.

Jeremy Greer:

romantic. I feel like, I feel like this is setting, setting us

Jeremy Greer:

a tone, and we're gonna, we're gonna get confirmation of that

Jeremy Greer:

later in the episode. I can't believe we have so much episode

Jeremy Greer:

to go like we are. We are. Get into the into this. I love it. I

Jeremy Greer:

love it.

Marie Vigouroux:

We're crazy.

Jeremy Greer:

Will and two plainclothes officers show up at

Jeremy Greer:

Tobias' shop. Tobias kind of instantly knows that they're

Jeremy Greer:

there to talk about the trombonist, because, you know,

Jeremy Greer:

it's a small world. And he says, I heard someone tried to play

Jeremy Greer:

him like a bow and will, who is he was going through it like

Jeremy Greer:

will is not meeting anybody's eyes, like he's almost as he as

Jeremy Greer:

he asked questions, as he says things he's like biting the

Jeremy Greer:

words off, almost like he can barely stand to be in this, in

Jeremy Greer:

this, in this moment. But I love this. Like, why do you say try?

Jeremy Greer:

How did you know it didn't work? And of course, Tobias is like,

Jeremy Greer:

because you can't just open someone's throat up and play

Jeremy Greer:

their vocal chords, like, you have to actually, like, they

Jeremy Greer:

won't make music unless they've been treated properly. And Will

Jeremy Greer:

is like, yeah, that's, that's why we're here, because they

Jeremy Greer:

were absolutely treated properly.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah. There you go. I love this idea, also,

Marie Vigouroux:

that, like this is a very literal representation of, like

Marie Vigouroux:

trying to play or like playing somebody like a violin, which is

Marie Vigouroux:

kind of what's happening also, but anyway.

Jeremy Greer:

Tobias says he gets all of his cat string cat

Jeremy Greer:

gut strings from Italy, and just says it allows the music to say

Jeremy Greer:

something words cannot. And you kind of feel like Tobias has

Jeremy Greer:

given his own little performance for the FBI here, right? Like

Jeremy Greer:

he's, he's, he's intentionally goading the FBI, you know,

Jeremy Greer:

behavioral serial killer catcher guy at this point. But will it's

Jeremy Greer:

got his own shit going on. So he's barely paying attention to

Jeremy Greer:

Tobias, because he hears like a loud crash and an animal scream,

Jeremy Greer:

and then, like, rushes out to the street to find it. And of

Jeremy Greer:

course, the cops that are there, like we didn't hear anything,

Jeremy Greer:

Tobias didn't hear anything. So this is all just very, very

Jeremy Greer:

fucking strange.

Marie Vigouroux:

Well, there you go. So like, the Yeah, it sounds

Marie Vigouroux:

like there's that - It sounds like a car crashes into an

Marie Vigouroux:

animal. And there's like a part of me that's starting to wonder

Marie Vigouroux:

if the things that he hears aren't protecting him in a way,

Marie Vigouroux:

from what's going on. Um, which I have a lot of thoughts about

Marie Vigouroux:

eventually, but not right now, because I'm not sure which is

Marie Vigouroux:

gonna go yet with this, but I wow.

Jeremy Greer:

yeah, presumably he's going to be hallucinating

Jeremy Greer:

some more stuff, so we could probably talk about in a future

Jeremy Greer:

episode. He goes back into the shop, and it's empty, and this

Jeremy Greer:

is when he begins to realize, like, oh shit, things aren't

Jeremy Greer:

right, draws his gun, goes into the next room, one of the

Jeremy Greer:

officers is dead. He calls it in, and then he makes his way

Jeremy Greer:

down to the basement. This is just a very big visual callback

Jeremy Greer:

to something that happens in Silence of the Lambs, which is

Jeremy Greer:

kind of. Just a neat little, neat little nod for us fans in

Jeremy Greer:

the basement are like jars of intestines, intestines drying in

Jeremy Greer:

the string in the sink, excuse me. And he heads to this like

Jeremy Greer:

corner of the room and finds the second officer dead with his

Jeremy Greer:

face and neck like basically cut through with this, with the

Jeremy Greer:

strings. And as he's looking at this, Tobias sneaks up and tries

Jeremy Greer:

to he has this like device, I guess, I don't know what you

Jeremy Greer:

would call it, like, two bars with that he's holding in his

Jeremy Greer:

hand with these, you know, cat gut strings, presumably human

Jeremy Greer:

strings between them, and he's trying to push that into Will's

Jeremy Greer:

face. Will's quick enough to get his arm up so they don't

Jeremy Greer:

actually hit him, and he's able to get a shot off. Then he

Jeremy Greer:

shoots between their faces, hitting Tobias ear, and then,

Jeremy Greer:

like, temporarily deafening will, and this is always an

Jeremy Greer:

effect I like when they do any TV shows where, like, everything

Jeremy Greer:

goes to, like a high wine Tobias runs away. Will tries to shoot

Jeremy Greer:

him. Does not work. And we cut over to Franklin, who has just

Jeremy Greer:

heard for the first time that he's getting a referral. I think

Jeremy Greer:

he said it's his ninth or 10th referral. And he's just really

Jeremy Greer:

sad. He just, he's just, he's just kind of mad about this. And

Jeremy Greer:

he says out loud, you're, you're, you're, you're angry at

Jeremy Greer:

me for not reporting Tobias. And then Tobias walks in. It's like,

Jeremy Greer:

not reporting Tobias for what? And Tobias says, I just killed

Jeremy Greer:

two men, and we cut to Hannibal, and Hannibal's face is just

Jeremy Greer:

like, you could tell he's he's devastated, he's stricken, and

Jeremy Greer:

he's trying to hide it so hard.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, like he 100% thinks that will got

Marie Vigouroux:

ganked. Like, he's like, Oh, well, that's sad.

Jeremy Greer:

Franklin urges Tobias to turn himself in. He

Jeremy Greer:

has, like, these long rambling we got to level the flight kind

Jeremy Greer:

of, kind of like metaphors. Hannibal is just like Franklin,

Jeremy Greer:

get the fuck out of here. And Tobias is like that. You stay,

Jeremy Greer:

you stay right where I want you.

Marie Vigouroux:

This is so sad by right? Because, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

Franklin, I mean, Franklin thinks that this is a character

Marie Vigouroux:

test for himself, right? Like, from Hannibal. Because he's

Marie Vigouroux:

like, let me do what I think Hannibal wants me to do in this

Marie Vigouroux:

moment. And so he's like, really ascribing intent to Hannibal.

Marie Vigouroux:

When Hannibal is like, no, no, that's really not what's going

Marie Vigouroux:

on.

Jeremy Greer:

And Franklin begins to talk some more.

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal finally is just like, Okay, I've had enough of this.

Jeremy Greer:

It just snaps his neck, just like, with a quick like, and

Jeremy Greer:

it's done.

Marie Vigouroux:

This was so shocking to me, like, I did not

Marie Vigouroux:

think that this was going to happen that way. And I just want

Marie Vigouroux:

to note that the only reason that Hannibal actually does this

Marie Vigouroux:

is because that he thinks that Tobias is about to tell Franklin

Marie Vigouroux:

about him.

Jeremy Greer:

Oh, interesting, yeah, so because Tobias is

Jeremy Greer:

probably about to loop him in absolutely, yeah.

Marie Vigouroux:

Because he's, like, I didn't do it alone or

Marie Vigouroux:

something, or I'm not the only one. Or like, he there's like,

Marie Vigouroux:

this idea that, like, he's about to say something about him being

Marie Vigouroux:

in cahoots with somebody else and so and Hannibal is like, No,

Marie Vigouroux:

I can't have that. And so I just think that that also shows one

Marie Vigouroux:

of his big intentions is to not get caught right like he is

Marie Vigouroux:

willing to kill people that he doesn't necessarily think

Marie Vigouroux:

deserve to die or don't deserve to have their organs in order to

Marie Vigouroux:

make sure that he is out of out of prison.

Jeremy Greer:

yes, yeah, that's the last thing that he wants, is

Jeremy Greer:

for his world to be reduced to a to a cell. Now, it's just Tobias

Jeremy Greer:

and Hannibal. Tobias is a little disappointed that he didn't get

Jeremy Greer:

to kill Franklin, and he pulls out - This is where the episode

Jeremy Greer:

gets a little off the rails. I think it's like,

Marie Vigouroux:

I was like what is happening.

Jeremy Greer:

I think Hannibal like, it's interesting the way

Jeremy Greer:

that Hannibal participates. Hannibal, the show, participates

Jeremy Greer:

in camp sometimes, because this very much feels campy to me,

Jeremy Greer:

like this feels like an outrageous on purpose kind of

Jeremy Greer:

kind of thing where Tobias pulls out this, I don't even know what

Jeremy Greer:

you call it. It's a violin string with like, something on

Jeremy Greer:

the end so he can, like, twirl it through the air. And Hannibal

Jeremy Greer:

was like, What in the fuck is this? What is going on? What TV

Jeremy Greer:

show did I just get into?

Marie Vigouroux:

honestly, like, when I first watched this, I was

Marie Vigouroux:

like, does Hannibal even know how to fight? Like, because

Marie Vigouroux:

there had been no indication of that, right? We had seen him

Marie Vigouroux:

kill, we had seen him do a lot of things, but in those moments,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, there was a very big power imbalance where, like, he was in

Marie Vigouroux:

control of the situation; here, he's really not. And I'm like, I

Marie Vigouroux:

don't even know if my booboo knows how to fight. Like, what

Marie Vigouroux:

is going on here?

Jeremy Greer:

It's TV rules, where everybody knows a little

Jeremy Greer:

bit of karate, right? Like,

Marie Vigouroux:

yeah, everybody knows kung fu.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, why does, why does Sam Winchester know

Jeremy Greer:

kung fu? Like, that doesn't make any sense. You have to ask the

Jeremy Greer:

questions like, right? Why is will carrying a gun into a like,

Jeremy Greer:

a to a shop like, that's another question. I keep needing to ask

Jeremy Greer:

another question,

Marie Vigouroux:

why does will have a gun period? Frankly,

Marie Vigouroux:

there's a question.

Jeremy Greer:

I meant to bring that up when they go see Dr

Jeremy Greer:

Gideon, and he's just standing in Chilton's office with a

Jeremy Greer:

fucking huge revolver on his belt, and I'm just like, why

Jeremy Greer:

will? Why you're not even an FBI agent like. What are you doing?

Jeremy Greer:

Why do you have a gun?

Marie Vigouroux:

I also feel like those places would probably

Marie Vigouroux:

take your gun away. You wouldn't want an inmate to get one of

Marie Vigouroux:

those.

Jeremy Greer:

You don't want an inmate to get a gun.Tthis fight

Jeremy Greer:

is pretty brutal and a little bit over the top and ridiculous

Jeremy Greer:

as they go back and forth.

Marie Vigouroux:

It's perfect

Jeremy Greer:

Tobias. Like gets a stab in the leg in, they get

Jeremy Greer:

several hits, like we see Hannibal kind of on the rocks a

Jeremy Greer:

little bit, like he's, he's, he's, he's kind of, he's down a

Jeremy Greer:

little bit, but he's, but he's tricksy. So he he tempts Tobias

Jeremy Greer:

over to the ladder, and as he dodges a blow from Tobias,

Jeremy Greer:

Tobias arm goes through the rungs of the ladder, and

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal is able to grab his arm and pull it, like snapping it,

Jeremy Greer:

and Tobias is still like standing up and like trying to

Jeremy Greer:

lunge at him with just one arm. But at this point, Hannibal

Jeremy Greer:

knows what he's doing. He stabs him in the throat, not stabs he

Jeremy Greer:

punches him in the throat, and Tobias just collapses, and he's

Jeremy Greer:

gasping for breath as Hannibal puts on gloves, which I find

Jeremy Greer:

really interesting, and smashes his head in with a stag statue

Jeremy Greer:

that has been in his office since the first episode that you

Jeremy Greer:

have never noticed, and it's been, it's been, it's been a lot

Jeremy Greer:

for me.

Marie Vigouroux:

No, I did notice that I mentioned it, it

Marie Vigouroux:

was there. I knew. I was like, Oh, my God, why is there a stag

Marie Vigouroux:

statue in there? But it's and it's so funny, because it just

Marie Vigouroux:

seems like so natural, right? Like it's almost a reflex of

Marie Vigouroux:

his, like, he grabs his little, like, what is it like, a little

Marie Vigouroux:

the silk that he has in his like, little pocket, and he's

Marie Vigouroux:

just, like, grabs the thing like this. And you can tell how

Marie Vigouroux:

practiced this is. And I'm just like, you are so scary, my dude,

Marie Vigouroux:

so incredibly scary. And I just love also the stag statue here,

Marie Vigouroux:

because, like, if you think about what just happened in the

Marie Vigouroux:

scene previously, like, Will's imaginary stag basically saved

Marie Vigouroux:

his life earlier, because he was outside the shop when Tobias

Marie Vigouroux:

started killing the cops. And here, Hannibal uses, like, his

Marie Vigouroux:

stag statue to protect himself from Tobias. And I'm just like,

Marie Vigouroux:

ooh, symbolism.

Jeremy Greer:

Symbolism, good. He also very carefully knocks

Jeremy Greer:

over the table that the stag statue was on. And it's this,

Jeremy Greer:

the practicing that you mentioned, like the this

Jeremy Greer:

practiced outlook. It's almost like he's setting the he's

Jeremy Greer:

setting all of this up to make sure it looks a certain way, to

Jeremy Greer:

absolve himself of any kind of suspicion, right? Like, that's,

Jeremy Greer:

that's the goal

Marie Vigouroux:

the performance

Jeremy Greer:

exactly. And it's, it's interesting that he's doing

Jeremy Greer:

this just like, almost by second nature, like it just doesn't

Jeremy Greer:

he's not doing it after the fact, like, literally, as he's

Jeremy Greer:

picking up the statue, like he's thinking this stuff through to

Jeremy Greer:

feel, to know exactly how it's going to look when the cops get

Jeremy Greer:

there. And as he walks over, he hits a single note on this

Jeremy Greer:

harpsichord, and as he does, like a song begins to play, and

Jeremy Greer:

the song is a song that's in silence of the lambs. So that's,

Jeremy Greer:

you know, another little mod.

Marie Vigouroux:

I just love that, like the notes that he

Marie Vigouroux:

plays on the harpsichord is in perfect pitch, like that

Marie Vigouroux:

instrument was fine. Never needed to be a restring right

Marie Vigouroux:

like that was clearly the spider in the apartment. There wasn't a

Marie Vigouroux:

spider.

Jeremy Greer:

Just wanted I just wanted you over. Just wanted you

Jeremy Greer:

to come over.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yes, exactly. There was never a raccoon in my

Marie Vigouroux:

chimney. I just wanted you to come over.

Jeremy Greer:

We skip ahead in time a little bit, and the

Jeremy Greer:

police have arrived and they're investigating the scene. Jack

Jeremy Greer:

walks through the door as Hannibal looks up and obviously,

Jeremy Greer:

like, there's a little bit of tension, and I'm glad the show

Jeremy Greer:

doesn't stretch this out or anything, like they don't, like

Jeremy Greer:

we don't go into slow mo mode or anything, but just very briefly

Jeremy Greer:

afterwards, like we see we it cuts to Hannibal, and we see him

Jeremy Greer:

like he has, he's has a tension, he's worried, and then will

Jeremy Greer:

walks through the door and the relief that floods his face,

Jeremy Greer:

like this moment where he realizes, oh my god, I'm so

Jeremy Greer:

happy that he survived. Like I'm so so happy. It's so emotional.

Jeremy Greer:

It's, it's, it's like, and I feel like this is almost

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal experiencing these moments, these emotions for the

Jeremy Greer:

first time, like he's not had this before, and I don't think

Jeremy Greer:

that he knew he even had this in him until this moment.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, you know, that's very true. I think that,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, because he says, For the first time in a long time, I'm

Marie Vigouroux:

considering friendship, right, with Bedelia. And so, like, it

Marie Vigouroux:

feels like the relationships that he's had with other people

Marie Vigouroux:

before have just kind of been, like, very transactional,

Marie Vigouroux:

whereas this is something more that he doesn't quite

Marie Vigouroux:

understand, and like he's seeing when will comes in, it's like,

Marie Vigouroux:

oh my God, finally, someone who's clever enough to get past

Marie Vigouroux:

my walls and who's worthy of my friendship. And I kind of wish

Marie Vigouroux:

that we had put that in the intro song.

Jeremy Greer:

Only could do so much. Only could do fit so much

Jeremy Greer:

a one minute rap.

Marie Vigouroux:

especially when I didn't know any of like

Marie Vigouroux:

anything that was gonna happen. Yes, but we need to update that.

Marie Vigouroux:

Eventually we need to update that.

Marie Vigouroux:

yeah, he very much wants to be excluded from

Jeremy Greer:

I need to work on that. We need to do a season two

Jeremy Greer:

from the perspective of with. People, I think, is the way I

Jeremy Greer:

want to do that. That'd be super fun. Will they question the

Jeremy Greer:

question Hannibal on what happened, and he says that he

Jeremy Greer:

was there with Franklin, who obviously knew Tobias, but

Jeremy Greer:

possibly knew more than he was saying about Tobias, and Tobias

Jeremy Greer:

came to kill him, and Hannibal was just like, I don't, because

Jeremy Greer:

Jack has questioned this whole thing, of, like, my FBI agent

Jeremy Greer:

showed up at this dude's house and this dude immediately ran

Jeremy Greer:

here to you, like, what is going on? So Hannibal is constructing

Jeremy Greer:

this thing and kind of saying, like, I don't know what was

Jeremy Greer:

going on. Like, I'm just, I was just here for Tobias, when for

Jeremy Greer:

Franklin, when Tobias showed up and, like, killed him and then

Jeremy Greer:

tried to kill me. Like, I don't know. I'm not a part of this, basically.

Jeremy Greer:

this conversation, from this narrative. I And I love that,

Jeremy Greer:

right?

Jeremy Greer:

Yes, absolutely. It's, I mean, it's, he's just

Jeremy Greer:

hiding, right? He's just, he's putting on the performance. This

Jeremy Greer:

is a human suit all over again. And Jack, of course, says, like

Jeremy Greer:

this doesn't feel simple to me, like he's, he's experienced

Jeremy Greer:

enough as a cop to know like this, something weird is

Jeremy Greer:

happening here.

Marie Vigouroux:

and he's right, you know, I think that's the

Marie Vigouroux:

part that's like, so ironic, is that he is absolutely right, but

Marie Vigouroux:

he has so much other crap like crowding his mind that he's

Marie Vigouroux:

like, Oh, well, whatever. Let's just close the case.

Jeremy Greer:

Will sits on the desk next to Hannibal. This is a

Jeremy Greer:

very, not quite intimate, but a very, very close moment between

Jeremy Greer:

the two of them. And Will is apologetic, as he says, like, I

Jeremy Greer:

feel like I dragged you into my world. And Hannibal says, I got

Jeremy Greer:

here on my own, but I appreciate the company. And it just, it

Jeremy Greer:

looks like he's almost about to cry as they have this, this

Jeremy Greer:

moment of bonding, right? Like, this is a, this is definitely a

Jeremy Greer:

moment where that, like, you know, transforms their

Jeremy Greer:

friendship into something else, like we talked about, you talk

Jeremy Greer:

about you talked about that liquid to solid transformation

Jeremy Greer:

from from milk to cheese. And this is, this is definitely the

Jeremy Greer:

cheese. This is definitely the milk reaching towards

Jeremy Greer:

immortality, right? Like, this is, this is that relationship.

Marie Vigouroux:

I mean, this is again, like, this is so

Marie Vigouroux:

romantic, like, I just think, and this is, this is me

Marie Vigouroux:

personally, but I just think that this is, like, the highest

Marie Vigouroux:

form of love, like, when the relationship is based on, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

enjoying the presence and company of the other person. And

Marie Vigouroux:

that's what Hannibal is saying here. Like, I got here of my own

Marie Vigouroux:

free will, hahaha. And I'm just happy to be here with you,

Marie Vigouroux:

right? Like, I don't I'm just content in this moment right

Jeremy Greer:

Yes, it's so good, it's so good, it's so good. And

Jeremy Greer:

now.

Jeremy Greer:

very romantic. I think you're absolutely right.

Marie Vigouroux:

So romantic. And the second thing here is

Marie Vigouroux:

that, like earlier, like these two men, basically lived a

Marie Vigouroux:

really uncomfortable moment of trying to connect with somebody

Marie Vigouroux:

else, right? Like will tried to connect to Alana, and she

Marie Vigouroux:

rejected him, and she walked away. And Tobias tried to

Marie Vigouroux:

connect to Hannibal, and Hannibal rejected Tobias, and

Marie Vigouroux:

Tobias walked away. Whereas here, like the puzzle pieces are

Marie Vigouroux:

really fitting so much better, because it's like Hannibal

Marie Vigouroux:

trying to connect to will by telling him that he appreciates

Marie Vigouroux:

his company, and it's will accepting the show of affection

Marie Vigouroux:

by smiling and staying right where he is and again, so

Marie Vigouroux:

romantic like this is exactly. This is a rom com trope.

Jeremy Greer:

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. This is, and I love

Jeremy Greer:

the idea too, of comparing and contrasting their earlier

Jeremy Greer:

relationships with don't Lana and Tobias, because in a bubble,

Jeremy Greer:

like in a like, if anybody looked at this from the outside,

Jeremy Greer:

like, Will and Lana are the are a match for one another, and

Jeremy Greer:

Tobias and Hannibal are a match for one another based on their

Jeremy Greer:

interest and their hobbies and things. But they were like,

Jeremy Greer:

neither one of those worked out, and now this, like, Odd Couple

Jeremy Greer:

situation between Hannibal and will, right? Like, it's a very

Jeremy Greer:

odd couple kind of kind of trope, and I just, I love it so

Jeremy Greer:

much, because I don't think either one of them really

Jeremy Greer:

understand what's happening at this moment. And for Hannibal to

Jeremy Greer:

be a little off his off his game, so to speak, to be a

Jeremy Greer:

little out of control, or to have the control that he usually

Jeremy Greer:

does, even over his own body, like here, he's disheveled,

Jeremy Greer:

which in a way that we've nearly never seen him be in front of

Jeremy Greer:

anybody. And it's just kind of fascinating, like that, this

Jeremy Greer:

whole relationship. And this episode ends with the scene with

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal and Bedelia, as he tells her that he's going to see

Jeremy Greer:

patients again. He's taken a couple of days off from seeing

Jeremy Greer:

patients. And he talks about, you know, someone will sit in

Jeremy Greer:

the chair that Franklin died in, and things like that, which is

Jeremy Greer:

not actually true at all. And he asked her, you know, he says, he

Jeremy Greer:

says he understands why Bedelia wanted to retire after she was

Jeremy Greer:

attacked, and asked her, will you ever return? Feel

Jeremy Greer:

comfortable returning to psychiatric work? And she just

Jeremy Greer:

looks at him, and, man, the tension in this scene is just so

Jeremy Greer:

crazy, like, we just don't know what is happening, what these

Jeremy Greer:

two characters have been through together. And she says, you

Jeremy Greer:

know, this is psychiatric work. She's almost like, pushing it

Jeremy Greer:

back in his face. And Hannibal says, like, Oh, I feel

Jeremy Greer:

responsible for Franklin's death. And Bedelia says, like,

Jeremy Greer:

No, you shouldn't. Every person has an intrinsic responsibility

Jeremy Greer:

for their own life. And we can't take that away from them. Like,

Jeremy Greer:

you know, everything that Franklin did to get himself

Jeremy Greer:

there, like, you know, is on Franklin. Like, you can't take

Jeremy Greer:

that responsibility away from him. And you have a note here

Jeremy Greer:

that feels like terrible advice. And I absolutely agree this does

Jeremy Greer:

not sound like something you should tell a serial -

Marie Vigouroux:

No, I have Yes, there you go. Like, this is

Marie Vigouroux:

terrible advice to be giving to a serial killer because, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

it really shifts the blame from the perpetrator to the victim.

Marie Vigouroux:

And I again, knowing a little bit more about Bedelia now, like

Marie Vigouroux:

I understand that this advice makes sense for her to be giving

Marie Vigouroux:

to Hannibal in this moment on the surface, but the dramatic

Marie Vigouroux:

irony here is really killing me. I'm just like, Girl, no, please

Marie Vigouroux:

don't know.

Jeremy Greer:

And he asked her if she took responsibility for

Jeremy Greer:

her attack, and she says she did, but not for the attacker's

Jeremy Greer:

death. And then she looks at him in a very weighted way. It says,

Jeremy Greer:

nor should you, and that's where the episode ends. And so now we

Jeremy Greer:

even have, we more information that she was attacked, and

Jeremy Greer:

apparently that attacker died somehow, but we don't know how,

Jeremy Greer:

and we will we find out.

Marie Vigouroux:

One would assume that she killed him like

Marie Vigouroux:

that's my assumption.

Jeremy Greer:

We will find out about all the things that

Jeremy Greer:

happened in this episode, and that's it. And man, what a wild

Jeremy Greer:

episode of television. Again, just the idea that we spend a

Jeremy Greer:

whole lot of time like seeing and tracking this like killer,

Jeremy Greer:

it's very in a very Monster of the Week fashion. But most of

Jeremy Greer:

this episode is actually about will and Hannibal's relationship

Jeremy Greer:

and that that changing, that that that reach towards the

Jeremy Greer:

mortality, that that that substance change, that that

Jeremy Greer:

state change from friendship to something else, from liquid to

Jeremy Greer:

solid, as you, as you've mentioned several times, is

Jeremy Greer:

extremely good.

Marie Vigouroux:

It's so good I can't believe I haven't watched

Marie Vigouroux:

this show before.

Jeremy Greer:

I'm surprised too, to be honest with you, like when

Jeremy Greer:

I texted you, or when I DM'd that day, which seems like it

Jeremy Greer:

was like yesterday at this point, but, and I was like, have

Jeremy Greer:

you seen Hannibal? Like, you know, Gillian Anderson's in it.

Jeremy Greer:

She's great. And you're like, No, it's on my list to watch one

Jeremy Greer:

day. And I was like, Okay, I think you will get the brain

Jeremy Greer:

worms on this. On this pretty bad

Marie Vigouroux:

and it's so hard because, like, we're

Marie Vigouroux:

recording about once a week, which is really great, but we're

Marie Vigouroux:

only, like, releasing episodes every two weeks. So at this

Marie Vigouroux:

point, we have this huge backlog, which is great, but

Marie Vigouroux:

it's also like, Oh my God, what's gonna happen for season

Marie Vigouroux:

two? We're gonna have to wait?

Jeremy Greer:

The answer is, No, we're absolutely not going to

Jeremy Greer:

wait. Like, I don't care if we finish all three seasons. And

Jeremy Greer:

it's like, we are booked until the end of 2025, and it's

Jeremy Greer:

January, like, I don't, don't care. I love, I love the pace

Jeremy Greer:

we're going at, because I feel like you, you are enjoying this

Jeremy Greer:

and that that comes through on the podcast quite a bit. So I

Jeremy Greer:

want, I want to make sure, if we keep up that energy, we can, we

Jeremy Greer:

can go back and talk about, like, feedback episodes or

Jeremy Greer:

whatever. But honestly, like, I just the pace that we're rolling

Jeremy Greer:

that is so much fun. So do you have any any last thoughts

Jeremy Greer:

before we go to our review section?

Marie Vigouroux:

No more thoughts.

Jeremy Greer:

No more thoughts.

Marie Vigouroux:

Do you have any thoughts? Any last thoughts?

Jeremy Greer:

Just that you always say that you have no more

Jeremy Greer:

thoughts at this every time I ask you that you're like, Nope,

Jeremy Greer:

no thoughts only. Only vibes. Okay!

Marie Vigouroux:

because that's how it feels, right? Like, I

Marie Vigouroux:

think we also spend so much time talking about the episode,

Marie Vigouroux:

right, that we do manage to get, like, a lot of it out. And so

Marie Vigouroux:

when we get to the end, I'm like, exhausted. I'm like, no

Marie Vigouroux:

more thoughts. No màs!

Jeremy Greer:

Now, what do I do now? What do I go?

Jeremy Greer:

All right, let's get into our reviews. Mary, you go first.

Marie Vigouroux:

All right, so I'm going to give this episode

Marie Vigouroux:

four stars. It was a bold follow up to our Fruity sorbet, this

Marie Vigouroux:

sharp, salty and a little nutty fromage hits just the right

Marie Vigouroux:

unconventional notes for the beginning of the end of this

Marie Vigouroux:

unforgettable meal.

Jeremy Greer:

And I will also give this four stars and say

Jeremy Greer:

it's decisively creamy fromage course with notes of bitterness

Jeremy Greer:

and fruitiness to accompany the delicious texture.

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh yum.

Jeremy Greer:

Thank you everybody for listening to rude

Jeremy Greer:

eats. We so much appreciate all of the feedback we've been

Jeremy Greer:

getting from you guys. We've noted a couple of times that

Jeremy Greer:

we're very much ahead on this podcast. We're recording this

Jeremy Greer:

literally two months before it's going to come out. So as as of

Jeremy Greer:

right now, people have been so so nice and kind to to listen

Jeremy Greer:

and to give us a shot and things like that. Just, I just want to

Jeremy Greer:

say thank you. It means a lot to us.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah. Thank you very much everybody. Thank you

Marie Vigouroux:

for telling your friends. Thank you for, you know, finding us

Marie Vigouroux:

also, like, it's, it's been, like, there's been so many

Marie Vigouroux:

really fun encounters of people being like, Oh my God, I didn't

Marie Vigouroux:

know you guys were doing this so cool. I don't know. I love it.

Marie Vigouroux:

It's great. Thank you for the love.

Jeremy Greer:

Mary, where can you be found? On the internet?

Marie Vigouroux:

You can find me unfortunately on Twitter

Marie Vigouroux:

@maryturner_ . You can also -

Jeremy Greer:

unfortunately, still

Marie Vigouroux:

let's be real, unfortunately still on Twitter

Marie Vigouroux:

@maryturner_. You can also find my other podcasts Carrying

Marie Vigouroux:

Wayward about Supernatural and the Gentleman Pirate's Library

Marie Vigouroux:

on Our Flag Means Death. And you can find those anywhere you

Marie Vigouroux:

listen to your podcasts.

Jeremy Greer:

You can find me on Twitter @jggreer. You can find

Jeremy Greer:

my podcast about Merlin, Supernatural, X-Files, Cowboy

Jeremy Greer:

Bebop, all at necessary, nope, sorry - All at

Jeremy Greer:

creepybutnecessary.cool. Uh, please go check any and all of

Jeremy Greer:

those out, if you will. And thank you for listening.

Marie Vigouroux:

You also have a special Patreon only podcast,

Marie Vigouroux:

lately, right? Maybe you should tell people about that.

Jeremy Greer:

Oh yeah. My Sword Is Hungry Still. Yeah, we are

Jeremy Greer:

dramatic on our names at the monster the week outfit. We will

Jeremy Greer:

never have a normal podcast name, again, that's what I've

Jeremy Greer:

decided. I don't care. Yeah, we started Game of Thrones for our

Jeremy Greer:

patrons. So that's something that you're into. Go, go, go

Jeremy Greer:

check it out. There's a link at creepybutnecessary.cool to our

Jeremy Greer:

Patreon that you can go join up also, since this is coming out

Jeremy Greer:

so late, I can talk about this. Later today, I' recording a live

Jeremy Greer:

commentary on the movie Twilight with my buddy Chris, that we're

Jeremy Greer:

I'm so excited. I've never seen Twilight either. So it'll be fun

Jeremy Greer:

going to release for patrons, so that you can, if you for some

Jeremy Greer:

reason, want to listen to Twilight and have me and Chris

Jeremy Greer:

talk over it, you can do that. So that's going to be super fun.

Jeremy Greer:

I've never seen Twilight, so I'm very excited and nervous. I

Jeremy Greer:

bought a six pack to get me through this. So that's if you

Jeremy Greer:

want to know, if you want to know what the vibes are, the

Jeremy Greer:

vibes are going to be Chris and Jeremy get drunk on a podcast together.

Jeremy Greer:

for my first experience with Twilight to be your commentary

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, me and me and Chris commenting talking about Bella

Jeremy Greer:

or whatever. And Chris has seen Twilight like, 1000 times. Like,

Jeremy Greer:

it's, it's, I think it's a comfort movie for him and his

Jeremy Greer:

and his fiance, because he's constantly sending me, like,

Jeremy Greer:

Twilight memes and things like that, and talking about Edward

Jeremy Greer:

and all this other stuff. So I can't, I cannot wait to

Jeremy Greer:

experience this. It's gonna be super fun.

Marie Vigouroux:

I was like, a twilight hater when it came out,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, such and anti. Oh my God.

Jeremy Greer:

I was very much - I thought it was, like one of

Jeremy Greer:

the dumbest things ever, like, with the sparkling and I didn't

Jeremy Greer:

know anything about it, like, and I still don't really, and I

Jeremy Greer:

still don't really know. I tried to read the book, and I bounced

Jeremy Greer:

off the book real hard. That was like, No, this is not, this is

Jeremy Greer:

not for me. But I grew up reading Interview with a

Jeremy Greer:

Vampire, which is like the goth kid vampire stuff. I thought I

Jeremy Greer:

was those were too easy vampires for me. I didn't. I didn't care

Jeremy Greer:

about those easy vampires. They weren't goth enough.

Marie Vigouroux:

It's the skin of a killer Bella. I'm sorry I

Marie Vigouroux:

just know this.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, I know, like, I know. I know random,

Jeremy Greer:

like, lines and memes, because Chris sends them to me so much.

Jeremy Greer:

That's how I knew all this stuff. Yeah. Anyway, thank you

Jeremy Greer:

for listening. Go to rudeeats.cool to find everything

Jeremy Greer:

and bon appetit.

Marie Vigouroux:

Bon appetit, everybody.

Marie Vigouroux:

Another two hours

Jeremy Greer:

another two hours on 45 minutes. I um

Marie Vigouroux:

unbelievable.

Jeremy Greer:

When I mentioned Mike earlier, about Alana and

Jeremy Greer:

will, it reminded me that he had texted me on Thursday because we

Jeremy Greer:

were talking about, like, Doctor stuff. He was like, trying to

Jeremy Greer:

interpret, like, test results and things, but he just texted

Jeremy Greer:

me question for you, dot, dot, dot. And I hadn't. I hadn't,

Jeremy Greer:

I've just assumed he was going to text again, and he didn't

Jeremy Greer:

like it. Just, he just left in, like, a question for you. So I

Jeremy Greer:

was like, as we were talking, I was like, Oh, what was your

Jeremy Greer:

question? Like, you didn't never text me. He goes, I forget what

Jeremy Greer:

it was. I was like, oh, okay, well. I was like, I'm

Jeremy Greer:

podcasting, my podcasting about Hannibal right now, and your

Jeremy Greer:

name came up, so I just wanted to, you know, just reminded me

Jeremy Greer:

to come back and check with you. And he says, and I don't know

Jeremy Greer:

what this means, so I'm hoping that you can tell me tell the

Jeremy Greer:

Virgin possum who can't drive that I said, hello. I want you.

Jeremy Greer:

I want you to know how much I had to not laugh when that came

Jeremy Greer:

up, because we were literally talking about, like, serious,

Jeremy Greer:

like, Hannibal stuff. And I was like, I can't laugh at whatever

Jeremy Greer:

the Virgin Possum is, but I'm here for it.

Marie Vigouroux:

It's because I don't even remember how this

Marie Vigouroux:

started, but one day, he just sent me that, that gif from

Marie Vigouroux:

clueless, where he's like, you're a virgin who can't drive.

Marie Vigouroux:

So from there, it kind of became a joke that, like, I'm a virgin

Marie Vigouroux:

who can't drive

Jeremy Greer:

that's very funny, just like Dean Winchester.

Marie Vigouroux:

And - yes, exactly just like in the same

Marie Vigouroux:

way, actually, in the same way. And the possum thing is just

Marie Vigouroux:

because I love possums, and I just think that their little

Marie Vigouroux:

faces when they're screaming just are very reminiscent of

Marie Vigouroux:

mine when I'm trying to do something that overwhelms me. So

Marie Vigouroux:

I identify with possums a lot. They're just as feral as I am

Marie Vigouroux:

which I love, good for them.

Jeremy Greer:

This is the time where I just start trying to

Jeremy Greer:

talk to all of your voice activated machines in your

Jeremy Greer:

house.

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh, it's just because my headphones were not

Marie Vigouroux:

turned on, hello.

Jeremy Greer:

Good morning.

Marie Vigouroux:

How are you?

Jeremy Greer:

I'm extremely good. I'm extremely full. We

Jeremy Greer:

found, we went to a grocery store yesterday that we don't

Jeremy Greer:

normally go to, so we were like, spying on everything to see what

Jeremy Greer:

they had any cool stuff, and they had these frozen croissants

Jeremy Greer:

made by a local bakery. So we cooked. We made them this

Jeremy Greer:

morning. I say we, Autum made them this morning. And I usually

Jeremy Greer:

I can, I can do one croissant, but I got greedy and decided to

Jeremy Greer:

drink eat two croissants. And now I am, I am

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh yes, oh my god, that's so good. You know

Marie Vigouroux:

how I know that I am extremely French because, like, I'm like,

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh yeah, two croissants. That's like, breakfast.

Jeremy Greer:

It's breakfast! No problem whatsoever.

Marie Vigouroux:

No biggie.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, I walked in there to get some water, and I

Jeremy Greer:

told autumn. I was like, I don't think I have to eat the rest of

Jeremy Greer:

the day. I think this is going to be who I am now. This is this

Jeremy Greer:

is just too -

Marie Vigouroux:

It's all the butter, all the butter, it's a

Marie Vigouroux:

lot. Love it.

Jeremy Greer:

And we smoked a prime rib yesterday, which is,

Jeremy Greer:

oh my god, a huge piece of meat, and it was super fun.

Marie Vigouroux:

How so, how long does that take? To smoke a

Marie Vigouroux:

full piece of meat like that?

Jeremy Greer:

I'll send you a picture.

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh, yes, please.

Jeremy Greer:

I'm always, I'm always like, I get a little

Jeremy Greer:

weird about sending people pictures of meat nowadays,

Jeremy Greer:

because I feel like, I don't know if that makes sense, but

Jeremy Greer:

like, because some like, you know, like posting like a giant

Jeremy Greer:

picture of bloody meat is like, well, maybe people don't want to

Jeremy Greer:

see that.

Marie Vigouroux:

Sure, yeah

Jeremy Greer:

oh, god damn it. I hate this. HEIC bullshit. I

Jeremy Greer:

don't know if that can that'll come across on Discord for you.

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh, hold on. Let me see, I was able to

Marie Vigouroux:

download. WHOA. Okay. Alright.

Jeremy Greer:

So we smoke it at like one or we smoke it at like

Jeremy Greer:

250 for about, I think we did, like three and a half four

Jeremy Greer:

hours. And that gets it to, like an internal temp about, like 110

Jeremy Greer:

120 and then we put it in the oven at like, 450 to kind of

Jeremy Greer:

crisp up the outsides. So it gets all kind of nice and crispy

Jeremy Greer:

on the outside and, like, really, really tender on the

Jeremy Greer:

inside. It's so, so good. It looks, it looks -

Marie Vigouroux:

My whole mouth is filled with saliva right now.

Jeremy Greer:

I'll have to find I didn't take pictures of the

Jeremy Greer:

rest of it. This is a meal we make every once in a while,

Jeremy Greer:

usually we do it with special guests, but we're just kind of

Jeremy Greer:

in the mood to party so but she does like popovers. I don't know

Jeremy Greer:

if you're familiar with what popovers are,

Marie Vigouroux:

aren't they like -

Jeremy Greer:

They look like, like giant, like muffins,

Jeremy Greer:

basically like that, that are huge.

Marie Vigouroux:

Ah, okay.

Jeremy Greer:

But they are really good. I'll see if I can

Jeremy Greer:

find a picture.

Marie Vigouroux:

I was like, do I get a picture of those?

Marie Vigouroux:

Because, like, I'm interested. I thought that they were kind of

Marie Vigouroux:

like those. What are they called? Like, the Yorkshire

Marie Vigouroux:

puddings or whatnot?

Jeremy Greer:

Yes, very much so

Marie Vigouroux:

they're kind of like that. Okay, yeah, where,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, you heat up the muffin tin in the oven with the oil, and

Marie Vigouroux:

then you pour the batter in, and then it just like, puffs up, and

Marie Vigouroux:

it looks delicious. You are

Jeremy Greer:

You are absolutely nailing this. This is exactly,

Jeremy Greer:

what this is.

Marie Vigouroux:

I know, the British version of it, because,

Marie Vigouroux:

you know, bake off.

Jeremy Greer:

Bake Off. I think that's where we kind of came up

Jeremy Greer:

with this. It was the Bake Off. So, yeah, do I have pictures of?

Jeremy Greer:

I mean, surely I do. I have a picture of, like, the final

Jeremy Greer:

plate, and that has a pop over on it. She also does fondant

Jeremy Greer:

potatoes, which are really, really good.

Marie Vigouroux:

I'm sure those taste like the potatoes from

Marie Vigouroux:

heaven that my son really loved this summer.

Jeremy Greer:

So these, this was our first batch, but I don't

Jeremy Greer:

know that they came out exactly the way she wanted to. There

Jeremy Greer:

should be, like, bigger than this - paste, um, but it gives

Jeremy Greer:

you the idea. Because I think, yeah, I think we did something

Jeremy Greer:

with the like, the oil, or something that didn't quite come

Jeremy Greer:

out the way she wanted it to.

Marie Vigouroux:

Well, that looks very yummy, though. So

Marie Vigouroux:

what's the texture like of those things, because I've always

Marie Vigouroux:

wanted to try them.

Jeremy Greer:

They're really good. They're so, like, they're

Jeremy Greer:

a little, like, thicker and breadier than a croissant, but,

Jeremy Greer:

like, the top parts are really airy and delicious. So they're

Jeremy Greer:

very good for because we did. She made a gravy and, of course,

Jeremy Greer:

a prime rib. We got to have horseradish on the side. So. I

Jeremy Greer:

was making little Yorkshire pudding, Prime Rib, gravy,

Jeremy Greer:

horseradish sandwiches with these things. It was so good.

Marie Vigouroux:

Listen, I just had a plate full of pancakes.

Marie Vigouroux:

And how, like, how am I hungry for this now?

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, and we have, of course. I mean, we just two

Jeremy Greer:

people. And her dad doesn't eat prime rib because it's rare, and

Jeremy Greer:

he doesn't like rare meat because he's a heathen. So we

Jeremy Greer:

have this for dinner tonight too, and I'm pretty excited

Jeremy Greer:

about it.

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh yes, I love leftover meat, like that. I find

Marie Vigouroux:

it so delicious. Plus, like, after, like, I don't know about

Marie Vigouroux:

you guys, but like, I love making those sandwiches after,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, with the leftover meat. Like, oh,

Jeremy Greer:

that will probably be, it kind of depends. I'll

Jeremy Greer:

probably do like a sandwich for lunch today, and do like a full

Jeremy Greer:

like dinner thing for dinner tonight. But yes, we do love the

Jeremy Greer:

sandwich. And then whatever's left over, like, we'll, we'll

Jeremy Greer:

vacuum, seal and freeze and just like, Okay, we want some prime

Jeremy Greer:

rib sandwiches. Let's, let's make some prime rib sandwiches

Jeremy Greer:

real quick, so and not have to spend an enormous amount of

Jeremy Greer:

money on a giant piece of meat.

Marie Vigouroux:

I need to get myself a vacuum sealer. Is what

Marie Vigouroux:

I realized.

Jeremy Greer:

It's good. It's life changing for us, because we

Jeremy Greer:

make a lot of big meals and again, just just two people.

Jeremy Greer:

Like it's pretty difficult to cook for just two people, so

Jeremy Greer:

having that just easy, having those easy meals on hand is

Jeremy Greer:

super, super good.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, I just made a big batch of, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

tomato soup, yeah, tomato sauce, yeah. So I'm pretty excited

Marie Vigouroux:

about that.

Jeremy Greer:

Get you some cheese sandwiches. Good bowl of

Jeremy Greer:

tomato soup,

Marie Vigouroux:

yep, with my homemade bread, homemade tomato

Marie Vigouroux:

soup!

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, yes, did the eventually homemade cheese?

Jeremy Greer:

Maybe, maybe some homemade cheese. Did you ever hook up

Jeremy Greer:

with your flour guy?

Marie Vigouroux:

I did, yes, yes, and I wanted to take

Marie Vigouroux:

pictures, but because it's an actual, real, like mill, they're

Marie Vigouroux:

like, yes, you're not allowed to use electronics in here because,

Marie Vigouroux:

you know, fire safety,

Jeremy Greer:

oh yeah, I guess because of all of the, like, the

Jeremy Greer:

particles in the air, right? Like, it's kind of like, yeah,

Jeremy Greer:

okay,

Marie Vigouroux:

right. So, like, they have, like, their own

Marie Vigouroux:

stuff, you can still pay with, like, interact and whatnot, but

Marie Vigouroux:

like, they're like, in order to reduce the risk, we really ask

Marie Vigouroux:

that you don't take pictures.

Jeremy Greer:

Man, there's a there's, I think it's in season

Jeremy Greer:

one. There's a silo episode of Hannibal, and it's okay, it's

Jeremy Greer:

intense. It's an intense moment. So

Marie Vigouroux:

yeah, it's, yeah, what's that one going to

Marie Vigouroux:

be called? Pain

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, I don't, can't remember if it's in season

Jeremy Greer:

one or not. So I'm curious I get them all confused. Because,

Jeremy Greer:

yeah.

Marie Vigouroux:

I just want to say that, like, for now, it's a

Marie Vigouroux:

good thing, because, like, I know French and, like, I can,

Marie Vigouroux:

you know, make some educated comments about, like, French

Marie Vigouroux:

language and whatnot. But like, when we get to the Japanese

Marie Vigouroux:

stuff, like, what are we going to do?

Jeremy Greer:

We're going to have to do a lot of research.

Jeremy Greer:

Like, we're both gonna have to, like, team up on it. I'm gonna

Jeremy Greer:

get autumn to help. Yeah, this is season two.

Marie Vigouroux:

Cause I have no clue.

Jeremy Greer:

Season Two. Episode Two.

Marie Vigouroux:

Season Two. Episode Two. Okay.

Jeremy Greer:

sakazuke, so we'll have to, like, I'm gonna have

Jeremy Greer:

to, like, Google that and, like, get it, get how to pronounce it

Jeremy Greer:

correctly, and do that whole thing.

Marie Vigouroux:

So, okay, so for some reason, 10 year old,

Marie Vigouroux:

who will be 11 by the time this comes out, has decided that he

Marie Vigouroux:

absolutely needed a Duolingo account in order to learn

Marie Vigouroux:

Japanese.

Jeremy Greer:

Okay, excellent.

Marie Vigouroux:

I was like, well, maybe that could be one of

Marie Vigouroux:

our resources

Jeremy Greer:

that could we'll get 10 year old to say it on the

Jeremy Greer:

on the podcast. You might as well. Like, what is a child

Jeremy Greer:

doing if you're not using it for content, right? Like, that's,

Jeremy Greer:

that's you should. You should be using it for your social media

Jeremy Greer:

experiences.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Use them, exploit them

Marie Vigouroux:

for your social media content. That is exactly what children

Marie Vigouroux:

are for.

Jeremy Greer:

That's the only thing I can see that they're

Jeremy Greer:

for, right?

Marie Vigouroux:

Exactly. Well, some people make a lot of money

Marie Vigouroux:

off of their kids on social media. It's

Jeremy Greer:

pretty gross. It's pretty gross.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yes

Jeremy Greer:

I don't I don't like it. I don't think that it's

Jeremy Greer:

good. I can't remember if this was a real thing or something I

Jeremy Greer:

saw on a TV show, but there was, maybe it was probably a TV show.

Jeremy Greer:

But like, there was a girl who was, like, in her mid teens, and

Jeremy Greer:

her mom was, like, a mommy blogger top type, and the girl

Jeremy Greer:

would always walk around in a shirt that says, I do not

Jeremy Greer:

consent to be filmed at this time. And the money was just

Jeremy Greer:

driving the mom crazy because she just walked by in the

Jeremy Greer:

background. She's like, I do not consent to be filmed. It's just

Jeremy Greer:

very funny, yeah, yeah. It's pretty gross. I don't, I don't

Jeremy Greer:

like people that exploit children for really anything

Marie Vigouroux:

for anything, yeah

Jeremy Greer:

we're watching that chimp documentary on max

Jeremy Greer:

right now. And the -

Marie Vigouroux:

The what documentary?

Jeremy Greer:

The chimp documentary that's called Chimp,

Jeremy Greer:

chimp crazy, and it's about this, this woman who, or it's

Jeremy Greer:

about people, basically, but once one woman specifically, who

Jeremy Greer:

is like, like, treats these like, Baby chimps, like they're

Jeremy Greer:

children. Like, it's insane, but it's very much the similar kind

Jeremy Greer:

of thing, of, like, we're gonna dress them up and put them on

Jeremy Greer:

Instagram and things like that. It's just very exploitative. And

Jeremy Greer:

I do not like it.

Marie Vigouroux:

yeah, it's, uh, it's a weird time because, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

when 10, well 11 year old was born, was like the height of

Marie Vigouroux:

those, like, Mommy blogs and so it was kind of weird to see it

Marie Vigouroux:

like, go from like, a community of parents, like sharing stuff

Marie Vigouroux:

together, to like, oh shit, I can make money off of, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

their pictures. And that's really when it turned me off

Marie Vigouroux:

entirely because, like, I was like, that's I don't, that's not

Marie Vigouroux:

great. That's not the goal.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, I just, I don't know. I find it weird when

Jeremy Greer:

people like, trust, I don't like, I don't, I know it sounds

Jeremy Greer:

weird, because I think people are very excited, but like,

Jeremy Greer:

school photos happen a lot, like on my Facebook, and I just first

Jeremy Greer:

day of school or whatever, and I'm like, Okay, if you say so, I

Jeremy Greer:

don't know. I just, I'm on the whole thing, very weird. Oh,

Jeremy Greer:

wow, I was okay. I was googling - I was looking at the notes,

Jeremy Greer:

and you had that tweet at the bottom, and it said he looked

Jeremy Greer:

like he was trying to be that one the Tasha kingsky Snake

Jeremy Greer:

photo shoot. So I was like,

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh, you googled that.

Jeremy Greer:

So I googled that. And I'm like, looking at the

Jeremy Greer:

image now, and I'm like, oh, oh, okay, damn, Nastasia. I don't

Jeremy Greer:

even know who you are. That's that you were brave for having

Jeremy Greer:

that snake all up in your business.

Marie Vigouroux:

I mean, I feel like, for some reason, it also

Marie Vigouroux:

works with like, the painting that you pointed out, yes, yes

Marie Vigouroux:

and when, when you like, when I read that note, I was just like,

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh, he's lounging about in a whorish manner.

Jeremy Greer:

Ever since starting the X Files podcast, we

Jeremy Greer:

have been sent that tweet probably three to 400 times.

Jeremy Greer:

Like it's, yes, we get, we get, we get that one a lot. It's a

Jeremy Greer:

lot of fun.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's just because, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

you see this band today, and it doesn't seem like this is, like

Marie Vigouroux:

the young man that he was,

Jeremy Greer:

I know, I know.

Marie Vigouroux:

So it's surprising to find out that,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, you know, he was a TA. He had a master's degree and

Marie Vigouroux:

everything. Like, it's a, I don't know.

Jeremy Greer:

And then he narrated a softcore porn show

Jeremy Greer:

for Showtime for a season or two.

Marie Vigouroux:

I mean, listen, English lit, softcore porn,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, you know.

Jeremy Greer:

Basically the same thing. This is a fun time being

Jeremy Greer:

David Duchovny. It sounds like, Oh yeah, you want me take a

Jeremy Greer:

picture with my completely nude, with my junk and a teacup? Yeah?

Jeremy Greer:

Sure. We're just hanging out.

Marie Vigouroux:

Listen him and Gillian Anderson did some really

Marie Vigouroux:

unhinged Photoshoots in the 90s, as you know.

Jeremy Greer:

It's crazy. It's crazy. Just him. It was her,

Jeremy Greer:

too. And now she's got that book about sexual fantasies out.

Marie Vigouroux:

I know!

Jeremy Greer:

And apparently one of her, like, her sexual

Jeremy Greer:

fantasies in there is like an anonymous thing, and she's not

Jeremy Greer:

telling people who it is, obviously, which one it is,

Jeremy Greer:

obviously, but it's just, I think it's just a way to get

Jeremy Greer:

people to read the book, like to buy the book and read it. But

Jeremy Greer:

it's interesting the things that she's talking about

Marie Vigouroux:

It worked on me.

Jeremy Greer:

Oh, really, did you have you read it yet?

Marie Vigouroux:

No, I haven't read it, but I am going to order

Marie Vigouroux:

it. I was going to order it like last weekend, but then I was

Marie Vigouroux:

like, Okay, let's just wait, because we it's anyway, it's

Marie Vigouroux:

early September for us, so all of the school expenses have come

Marie Vigouroux:

through. And I was just like, Gillian Anderson's sexual

Marie Vigouroux:

fantasy will just have to wait.

Jeremy Greer:

Just have to wait for a little while.

Marie Vigouroux:

exactly, but I will get back to it.

Jeremy Greer:

She's talking about, like, destigmatizing the

Jeremy Greer:

idea of sex and sexual fantasies and things for women. And I'm

Jeremy Greer:

just really curious if it all they go into, like, the fanfic

Jeremy Greer:

side at all, right? Because it seems like there's that whole,

Jeremy Greer:

like, if you just go to AO3, you're like, Oh, this is where

Jeremy Greer:

all of the women go to get to get all of this stuff. Like,

Jeremy Greer:

this is, this is the thing. And I'd be really curious if they

Jeremy Greer:

delved into that at all, like, they obviously don't have to or

Jeremy Greer:

anything. It's just kind of an interesting perspective, if

Jeremy Greer:

you're going to talk about that general way.

Marie Vigouroux:

I mean, when you think about it, her book is

Marie Vigouroux:

kind of organized by tags, right? Like, because it's

Marie Vigouroux:

organized by theme, so I can't remember exactly what they are,

Marie Vigouroux:

but like, it's, like some of those are literal tags on AO3

Marie Vigouroux:

or, like there's like a an equivalent for it, right? So

Marie Vigouroux:

like, it's, yeah, it's AO3.

Jeremy Greer:

it's AO3. I think my favorite ao three tag, just

Jeremy Greer:

as a concept. And you and I may have talked about this before in

Jeremy Greer:

a podcast, but the dead dove tag, because I love it, because

Jeremy Greer:

it's like, changed because of, like, the original joke from

Jeremy Greer:

arrest development is, like, you know, there's a bag in the

Jeremy Greer:

refrigerator named called with the words dead Dove written on

Jeremy Greer:

it. The guy opens it, and he looks at it, and he goes, Well,

Jeremy Greer:

I don't know what I expect.

Marie Vigouroux:

because it's an actual dead dove inside that

Marie Vigouroux:

bag. Oh Gob!

Jeremy Greer:

Oh Gob! So dead dove starts become a thing of,

Jeremy Greer:

like, no, no. This is like, read the tags like, this is going to

Jeremy Greer:

be serious. This is a lot. And then it like, changes so that

Jeremy Greer:

people are like, using it ironically, almost, and the

Jeremy Greer:

definition changes. And people are like, You shouldn't tag your

Jeremy Greer:

stuff dead dove it if it has this or this, or this or this.

Jeremy Greer:

And like, there's like, that, like, a mini fandom argument

Jeremy Greer:

about it. And I just just so fascinating to me. Like, AO3 is

Jeremy Greer:

a concept is just amazing and fascinating to me 100%

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah. I mean, I find it weird that like people

Marie Vigouroux:

because, like, I think the thing is, like, a lot of people heard

Marie Vigouroux:

dead dove without really knowing where it was from, and so, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

they sort of assumed that it meant certain things, that it

Marie Vigouroux:

meant, like dark fic or whatever. But like, dead dove

Marie Vigouroux:

has always meant, like, read the tags. You will get exactly what

Marie Vigouroux:

the tags say. Don't read this and complain, right kind of

Marie Vigouroux:

thing, because that was kind of becoming an issue, where people

Marie Vigouroux:

were tagging their fics, and then people were like, Oh, I

Marie Vigouroux:

can't believe you put this in. And they're like, it's tagged.

Marie Vigouroux:

What did you expect?

Jeremy Greer:

I literally told you this ahead of time.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, there you go.

Jeremy Greer:

It's very very funny to me.

Marie Vigouroux:

It's so weird to me, and interestingly, so I'm

Marie Vigouroux:

actually really interested to get into this, because I know

Marie Vigouroux:

that the Hannibal fandom has some really interesting and

Marie Vigouroux:

intricate, like inter fandom arguments, and I don't quite

Marie Vigouroux:

know what they are, but I know that they have to do with dead

Marie Vigouroux:

dove, and I am so excited to get into those eventually, because

Marie Vigouroux:

I'm sure, I'm sure it'll come to our attention.

Jeremy Greer:

I will have to do some research as we get to the

Jeremy Greer:

the end of the arc. I guess I can just do it now I know the

Jeremy Greer:

ending, so, like, it's not a big deal. I will have to do some

Jeremy Greer:

research on that. I don't know anything about the Hannibal

Jeremy Greer:

fandom really. Like it's fandom spaces are so interesting and so

Jeremy Greer:

weird. I just never really participated in a lot of them,

Jeremy Greer:

like, before getting into podcasting, and really

Jeremy Greer:

podcasting most supernatural specifically. So like, now I'm

Jeremy Greer:

looking at, like, the Reddit of Hannibal, but like, when I was

Jeremy Greer:

just watching Hannibal, I was just watching Hannibal, like, I

Jeremy Greer:

didn't go online to, like, talk about Hannibal or anything. So

Jeremy Greer:

it's wild that, like, you go into these communities and

Jeremy Greer:

there's like, long standing arguments about fanfic or

Jeremy Greer:

whatever. So hilarious

Marie Vigouroux:

Exactly, exactly I love that it's, it's,

Marie Vigouroux:

and that's kind of the thing sometimes I find in fandom that

Marie Vigouroux:

I've experienced anyway, personally, it's that like,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, fandom arguments kind of get lost in some of the details.

Marie Vigouroux:

Like, I find that sometimes we forget the forest for the trees,

Marie Vigouroux:

and that's why I now like to kind of keep at just a little

Marie Vigouroux:

bit of distance with fandom discourse, because, like, it's

Marie Vigouroux:

really interesting to participate and to witness and

Marie Vigouroux:

to see. But also, like, I kind of refuse to get sucked into the

Marie Vigouroux:

drama of it, because that's what ends up happening. And by drama

Marie Vigouroux:

sometimes, I mean, like, people getting really nasty and doxxing

Marie Vigouroux:

other people. And, like, it's, so, it's, it's, it becomes,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, real issues, right over fictional characters. And I

Marie Vigouroux:

just, I don't, I'm not into that. That's not cool.

Jeremy Greer:

It's, you know, I think you and I are kind of on

Jeremy Greer:

the same page where, like, it's okay to, like, a bad guy, and

Jeremy Greer:

the idea that, like, I enjoy a fic that has XYZ tag on it, so

Jeremy Greer:

therefore I am a bad person, is just fucking wild to me, like

Jeremy Greer:

that is, or if I enjoy this character or a particular ship,

Jeremy Greer:

or, you know, even if it's like a problematic ship in real life,

Jeremy Greer:

like if It's not something that you would ever want to do in

Jeremy Greer:

real life, or never want to see in real life, it fiction. That's

Jeremy Greer:

what fiction is for. It's for exploring that and figuring

Jeremy Greer:

stuff out, and for like, you know, dealing with that almost,

Jeremy Greer:

and the idea that, like, I don't know, like the I feel like the

Jeremy Greer:

internet's gotten like, weirdly, I guess chastity driven almost,

Jeremy Greer:

I don't know if that's the word I'm really looking for, but like

Jeremy Greer:

-

Marie Vigouroux:

Puritan

Jeremy Greer:

Puritan is the word that I'm looking for. Thank

Jeremy Greer:

you. And it's just so strange. Like, like, I don't know, like,

Jeremy Greer:

should be, you should be able to do anything you want to, like

Jeremy Greer:

you're not hurting anybody, like you're tagging it correctly. So

Jeremy Greer:

who cares?

Marie Vigouroux:

Exactly I think that's that's like, my whole

Marie Vigouroux:

point. Like, literally, no real person is getting exploited in

Marie Vigouroux:

these situations. And it's like, that's, that's exactly, what you

Marie Vigouroux:

want.

Jeremy Greer:

yeah, that's, that's the way this should work.

Jeremy Greer:

Like, if you look at actual pornography, like, there's poor

Jeremy Greer:

women are being exploited all of the time. Like, if, you know, if

Jeremy Greer:

you participate in that system, like, even in, you know, if you

Jeremy Greer:

look at only fans or whatever, like even in those systems, like

Jeremy Greer:

you can be exploited. This is just fiction. These are just

Jeremy Greer:

letters on a page. Doesn't matter.

Marie Vigouroux:

I know, I know, I know. I get it. I totally get

Marie Vigouroux:

it. And I think that, I think that this is kind of like at the

Marie Vigouroux:

heart of some of the Hannibal fandom's issues. So I'm excited

Marie Vigouroux:

for you to. Kind of like looking because I'm afraid of googling

Marie Vigouroux:

anything -

Jeremy Greer:

You can't, you absolutely can't, yeah, it will,

Jeremy Greer:

you will be immediately spoiled on everything. And the ending is

Jeremy Greer:

so good, like, the ending of season two is so good that,

Jeremy Greer:

like, I'm trying, desperately trying to, like, keep an egg

Jeremy Greer:

around you so you don't hear anything.

Marie Vigouroux:

It's, you know, I I've been really careful. I

Marie Vigouroux:

did Google a thing the other day because I was looking, oh, it

Marie Vigouroux:

was about the painting. So I googled the painting, and it

Marie Vigouroux:

brought me to a page, and I started, like, looking at the

Marie Vigouroux:

painting, and then I but I thought it was about episode,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, the episode that we were covering today, but it was about

Marie Vigouroux:

a future episode. And I'm like, no, no. So I read like a couple

Marie Vigouroux:

lines of dialogue of therapy between Hannibal and will, or

Marie Vigouroux:

conversation, I should say, because is he patient? Is he not

Marie Vigouroux:

a patient? That's problematic!

Jeremy Greer:

Extremely problatic.

Marie Vigouroux:

Not the fact that Hannibal is cannibal, but

Marie Vigouroux:

whatever. So, yeah, I, but I, there was no context, and so I

Marie Vigouroux:

didn't get it.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, a lot of that conversation is so

Jeremy Greer:

cerebral. Like, it's not like, I think you could probably read,

Jeremy Greer:

like, a whole scene between will and Hannibal and not get spoiled

Jeremy Greer:

on, like, this stuff that I would be worried that you get

Jeremy Greer:

spoiled on, right? Like, just because, yeah, just tell me,

Jeremy Greer:

will I made a really terrible joke - Oh, I wanted to, since we

Jeremy Greer:

were talking about Lita in the swan. I'll do this in the

Jeremy Greer:

outtakes, because I don't really want to bring it up on the

Jeremy Greer:

podcast, somebody - So I brought up the the swan fucking thing on

Jeremy Greer:

blue sky. And, yes, this is such a good so I basically said,

Jeremy Greer:

like, you know, sometimes researching your Hannibal for

Jeremy Greer:

your stuff or your Hannibal podcast is like listening to

Jeremy Greer:

opera, and sometimes it leads you directly to Swan Fucking.

Marie Vigouroux:

yes.

Jeremy Greer:

And somebody was like, Are they at least

Jeremy Greer:

graceful, this dude, Tom, and I was like, there are beautiful

Jeremy Greer:

pictures and sculptures of Swan fucking dating back to the Roman

Jeremy Greer:

Empire, my dude. And he responded, they understood Lita

Jeremy Greer:

dash ship back then, which is one of the best puns that I've

Jeremy Greer:

ever seen in my life, because it works on like three different

Jeremy Greer:

levels. And I just love it. Lida dash ship, they understood

Jeremy Greer:

leadership back then. Thank you. Thank you. Tom Haley, if you're

Jeremy Greer:

listening to this podcast,

Marie Vigouroux:

yes, thank you. Thank you very much. Tom for

Marie Vigouroux:

this, for this Sunday morning laughs.

Jeremy Greer:

Are you want to get into it?

Marie Vigouroux:

I'm ready to get into it.

Jeremy Greer:

All right. Time to start our three hour

Jeremy Greer:

conversation About Hannibal.

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About the Podcast

Show artwork for Rude Eats: A Hannibal Podcast
Rude Eats: A Hannibal Podcast
Feast your ears on Rude Eats, the new podcast that's been simmering in the shadows, where we dissect NBC's Hannibal with dark humor and ominous insights. Hosted by Marie Vigouroux and Jeremy Greer, art by AlexDreamsArt, music by Jake Lionheart.

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About your hosts

Profile picture for Marie Vigouroux

Marie Vigouroux

I used to describe myself as a foodie in the heyday of Instagram food pics.
Profile picture for Jeremy Greer

Jeremy Greer

I would very much like to boop Hannibal on the nose one day.