Episode 5

Walking His Imaginary Moose

More questions: is it ok to keep serious illness from your partner? Where's Abigail? IS SOMEONE GONNA FIX WILL????

Rude Eats is hosted by Marie Vigouroux and Jeremy Greer. Follow our YouTube channel for fun videos, episode previews, and full episodes. If the app you're using doesn't support built-in transcripts, you can find PDFs for each episode at this link.

You can hear more of Mary on her Supernatural podcast, Carrying Wayward, or her podcast about Our Flag Means Death, The Gentleman Pirate's Library. Jeremy's podcasts are collected at this website, unless you're looking for X-Men chat in which case you can use this link.

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Transcript
Marie Vigouroux:

I'm Marie Vigouroux.

Jeremy Greer:

I'm Jeremy Greer.

Marie Vigouroux:

And this is Rude Eats, a delicious podcast

Marie Vigouroux:

where we sink our teeth into every episode of the show

Marie Vigouroux:

Hannibal. And this week, we're going to be talking about season

Marie Vigouroux:

one, episode five, Coquille.

Marie Vigouroux:

Jake Lionheart (intro music): I want Will Graham, I really do

Marie Vigouroux:

and I think that we could have some fun. Then you can do

Marie Vigouroux:

anything you like. I might even go and help you catch the

Marie Vigouroux:

Shrike. I want Will Graham, I want that man for every meal and

Marie Vigouroux:

on demand. His mind shines and his body's cut. I know that he

Marie Vigouroux:

works for the FBI, but what other man has pure empathy and

Marie Vigouroux:

the ability to see my mind. Jack. What other thing have I

Marie Vigouroux:

ever asked you for besides never looking into my pantry? And I

Marie Vigouroux:

won't get that. Damn. I want Will Graham. I want him so and

Marie Vigouroux:

he really doesn't need to know what's in my meals or on my

Marie Vigouroux:

mind. I just want Will Graham to be mine. I want him, and I want

Marie Vigouroux:

him now. I said before, I don't care how. I'll give him tests.

Marie Vigouroux:

He'll draw a clock, and then his dark desires I will unlock.

Marie Vigouroux:

We'll be together, Willll and me. We'll throw some brand in

Marie Vigouroux:

the parties. We'll cut the flesh. We'll cook the meat.

Marie Vigouroux:

He'll eat the food just like me. Give me goddamn Will Graham.

Jeremy Greer:

Coquille. I was, I'm really glad you said that,

Jeremy Greer:

because for some reason in my head I was gonna say coquillé. I

Jeremy Greer:

was, I think I was gonna take it a Spanish term for that.

Marie Vigouroux:

I actually love that.

Jeremy Greer:

I forgot we're French. Hi, Mary, how are you?

Marie Vigouroux:

I'm very good. Jeremy, how are you?

Jeremy Greer:

I'm great. I'm so excited. This is the first

Jeremy Greer:

podcast we've recorded since releasing the podcast. We got to

Jeremy Greer:

Episode Five before we made this thing public, and the feedback

Jeremy Greer:

has been overwhelming and really, really great. We

Jeremy Greer:

premiered the video, and that was a lot of fun. People on

Jeremy Greer:

Twitter found us. People on YouTube have found us. We're

Jeremy Greer:

starting to see like, names that I'm not familiar with, like,

Jeremy Greer:

listening to the podcast and commenting, and I just, it's

Jeremy Greer:

just so fantastic. So thank you everybody, as you're if you're

Jeremy Greer:

listening to this two months down the line that from when

Jeremy Greer:

recording it, that I'm just so appreciative. And thank you so

Jeremy Greer:

much for taking time out of your day to listen and to hang out

Jeremy Greer:

with us while we were doing social media stuff. It was just,

Jeremy Greer:

it's also great. So thanks.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, honestly, thank you so much everyone.

Marie Vigouroux:

Like, it's, it's been, I honestly didn't expect it to be,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, so well received, I guess - People were just

Jeremy Greer:

This quickly, right?

Marie Vigouroux:

This quickly, yeah. Like, people were on

Marie Vigouroux:

board. And even because, like, obviously people in our

Marie Vigouroux:

respective, like, servers were aware that this was going on.

Marie Vigouroux:

And, like, we had put out a little something on Twitter,

Marie Vigouroux:

but, like, nothing big, right? Like, we didn't do any real

Marie Vigouroux:

marketing or teasing or anything like that. And so for this many

Marie Vigouroux:

people to be on board this quickly, like you said, has

Marie Vigouroux:

just, it has been overwhelming, really. Like, I, I can't, I

Marie Vigouroux:

can't really put it into words. But thank you so much everyone.

Marie Vigouroux:

Because obviously, like, I think that we would still podcast

Marie Vigouroux:

about this, even if, like, four people were listening to it we

Marie Vigouroux:

were talking about this morning. But like to know that there are

Marie Vigouroux:

people listening really is a big motivator, I think, for us to

Marie Vigouroux:

continue doing this and to have fun. And thank you so much. And

Marie Vigouroux:

if you want to help us further, of course, tell your friends

Marie Vigouroux:

about it like, leave us a review, a rating, particularly

Marie Vigouroux:

on Apple podcasts. For some reason this is, you know, what

Marie Vigouroux:

seems to have the most effect on how many people listen, comments

Marie Vigouroux:

on YouTube as well. Really great. So yeah, thank you so

Marie Vigouroux:

much.

Jeremy Greer:

Thank you so much. We're going to get into this

Jeremy Greer:

episode, which is described as "Will and the team track a

Jeremy Greer:

serial killer who has a gruesome ritual. Hannibal tries to drive

Jeremy Greer:

a wedge between Jack and Will. Jack's wife Bella starts therapy

Jeremy Greer:

with Hannibal." This aired on April 25, 2013 it was, the

Jeremy Greer:

teleplay was written by Scott namurfo and Brian fueler, story

Jeremy Greer:

by Scott murfo, directed by Guillermo Navarro, and let's,

Jeremy Greer:

let's take a minute to talk about Coquillé.

Marie Vigouroux:

Coquillé! I do love that. Now we're gonna be

Marie Vigouroux:

saying it that way.

Jeremy Greer:

What is the proper way? I'm sorry, let's, let's say

Jeremy Greer:

the proper way again.

Marie Vigouroux:

Coquille.

Jeremy Greer:

Coquille. Let's talk about what Coquille is.

Marie Vigouroux:

So it means shell in English, basically. So

Marie Vigouroux:

in the very literal sense of food, I think this is a

Marie Vigouroux:

reference to shellfish like clams and stuff like that. And

Marie Vigouroux:

so if we dig a little bit deeper into the theme of this episode,

Marie Vigouroux:

I think that the shell is about our bodies, particularly, like

Marie Vigouroux:

the limits of our bodies, especially when it comes to

Marie Vigouroux:

illness. There's a lot of ways that we can conceptualize like

Marie Vigouroux:

our relationship with our body, and one of the guiding questions

Marie Vigouroux:

is like, are our bodies and our souls or our spirits or our

Marie Vigouroux:

minds? Like, are those things separate entities, yes or no.

Marie Vigouroux:

And then further questions also include those of like, health

Marie Vigouroux:

and illness and what to do on your body, like, the very thing

Marie Vigouroux:

that keeps you alive in this world, your shell, if you will,

Marie Vigouroux:

isn't working as it should anymore. And I think that this

Marie Vigouroux:

episode is a little bit of a reflection on that.

Jeremy Greer:

In several different ways, right? So, like

Jeremy Greer:

you mentioned illness, and we have two characters in this

Jeremy Greer:

episode that are, one has a brain tumor and one has cancer

Jeremy Greer:

that are literally like their body is failing them. And like

Jeremy Greer:

you know, they're they're becoming different people

Jeremy Greer:

because of that, one in an extraordinary fashion, and one

Jeremy Greer:

in a much more direct and more realistic fashion. And then when

Jeremy Greer:

you talk about, like, our bodies, our minds, are those

Jeremy Greer:

separate entities. We have to look at Will Graham, because in

Jeremy Greer:

this episode, like, is when we see him for the first time, like

Jeremy Greer:

reaching his limits, right? Like that, he's, he's finally, like,

Jeremy Greer:

kind of pushing back on Jack and realizing, like, I can look at

Jeremy Greer:

this stuff, but the, you know, the mind part is getting harder

Jeremy Greer:

and harder to work like that, thinking about it is, what's

Jeremy Greer:

what's bad and yeah. And then we also have, like, some, some real

Jeremy Greer:

direct stuff, like the foie gras in this episode, which is food

Jeremy Greer:

within a food, very reminiscent of a shell, like, where you open

Jeremy Greer:

it up and there's food inside. And so it just, it works on a

Jeremy Greer:

lot of different levels. Again, I always thought that they did

Jeremy Greer:

this as just kind of a goof. Like, I thought, like, oh, it's,

Jeremy Greer:

it's Hannibal, so we're gonna have, like, a food themed

Jeremy Greer:

episode title. And then the more that you think about it, the

Jeremy Greer:

more that you talk about it, the more I realized, like, oh, they

Jeremy Greer:

were really thinking about this. Like, they applied a lot of

Jeremy Greer:

thought into these scripts and the things that they were going

Jeremy Greer:

to show with each each individual episode title. So

Jeremy Greer:

it's fun getting into it.

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh, yeah, yeah. Like we said, like, I think

Marie Vigouroux:

either last episode or a couple episodes ago, like, it really

Marie Vigouroux:

feels crafted, which is great. Love that.

Jeremy Greer:

Do we want to talk about anything else before we

Jeremy Greer:

get into our play Ball play on the episode?

Marie Vigouroux:

I mean, I'm good.

Jeremy Greer:

Well, let's get into our play by play. We are

Jeremy Greer:

going to start out with Will Graham walking on the road,

Jeremy Greer:

shoeless, in his pajamas, and we see the stag following him. It's

Jeremy Greer:

obviously very cold out. We see Will's breath on the air, and

Jeremy Greer:

the stag nudges him, which is the first time that the stag has

Jeremy Greer:

actually touched him, which is, I think, very significant.

Marie Vigouroux:

I mean, yeah, the way that I saw this was that

Marie Vigouroux:

there's less and less of a separation between, like, his

Marie Vigouroux:

imaginary world and the quote, unquote, real world. So, you

Marie Vigouroux:

know, they were talking with Hannibal a couple episodes ago

Marie Vigouroux:

about like the walls of the house of Garrett Jacob Hobbs.

Marie Vigouroux:

And it sort of feels here like the walls of reality are kind of

Marie Vigouroux:

collapsing around Will.

Jeremy Greer:

And it's, and it's also like, it's definitely that,

Jeremy Greer:

and it's because the stag in is what it's in, the stag is in

Jeremy Greer:

Will's mind, but one of his dogs has followed him, right? So

Jeremy Greer:

that's the dog judging him, because the dog is concerned

Jeremy Greer:

about his owner, which is the Winston, the dog that he stole

Jeremy Greer:

from an owner, because the dog had a collar when he got him,

Jeremy Greer:

which is very funny to me. We see cop lights in the distance,

Jeremy Greer:

and we get the kind of this normal cop routine of like,

Jeremy Greer:

where you know where you are? Do you know where you live, that

Jeremy Greer:

kind of thing. We finally see Winston and the dog they

Jeremy Greer:

question Will as he's in the back of the police car. He had a

Jeremy Greer:

little bit of whiskey, but not a lot, but he's still very

Jeremy Greer:

confused. He even says, I'm I'm not even sure if I'm awake right

Jeremy Greer:

now. And then we skip over to Baltimore, where Hannibal pours

Jeremy Greer:

coffee from his fancy Belgian coffee pot. A funny story here,

Jeremy Greer:

I have this coffee pot.

Jeremy Greer:

I do, I do. Autumn got it for me for Christmas, not

Marie Vigouroux:

You do not oh my god!

Marie Vigouroux:

this last year, but the year before, because I was getting

Marie Vigouroux:

real big into coffee. And she's like, this is like, and it takes

Marie Vigouroux:

forever to make coffee with this thing. And it goes back to what

Marie Vigouroux:

we were talking about, I think the last episode about Hannibal

Marie Vigouroux:

being prepared for everything, like, it has to be five or seven

Marie Vigouroux:

minutes before, like, Will walked in was like, Yes, I would

Marie Vigouroux:

like a cup of coffee. And Hannibal going, like, let me get

Marie Vigouroux:

all of my guests. Get all of my gadgets. Like, there's, what you

Marie Vigouroux:

don't see is, there's like a there's like a butane thing that

Marie Vigouroux:

you have to light. It boils, and then it like, like, as it boils,

Marie Vigouroux:

it like, moisture moves into the other thing. So it like, levers

Marie Vigouroux:

up. Like, it's a whole situation that beauty is going through

Marie Vigouroux:

here. I. I tried to find a video of it because I thought I had a

Marie Vigouroux:

video of it on my phone somewhere. I could not find it

Marie Vigouroux:

for the life of me. I was going to send it to you, but then I

Marie Vigouroux:

just decided to surprise you and tell you that I had one.

Marie Vigouroux:

Well, good job. I was surprised.

Jeremy Greer:

And they begin to discuss the reason that Will

Jeremy Greer:

could be sleepwalking, and Hannibal says that it's probably

Jeremy Greer:

from PTSD from his job. And Will pushes back on this. And, like,

Jeremy Greer:

if my body is walking around without my permission, would you

Jeremy Greer:

say that this is a loss of control, and Hannibal just looks

Jeremy Greer:

at me says, wouldn't you, like, absolutely, that's a loss of

Jeremy Greer:

control. And it's just, you know, it's just Will going to

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal to, like, help me, essentially, right?

Marie Vigouroux:

Like, Will is actually, like, really reaching

Marie Vigouroux:

out in this episode. And we'll talk about more about that

Marie Vigouroux:

later. But like, do you, have you ever been, like, in contact

Marie Vigouroux:

with somebody who was sleepwalking, or have you

Marie Vigouroux:

sleepwalked? Like, if you feel comfortable talking about it.

Jeremy Greer:

I've seen it happen before. The only time

Jeremy Greer:

that I have slept walk, embarrassingly enough, is like

Jeremy Greer:

when I get, there was one time where I got especially drunk as

Jeremy Greer:

a younger man, and I woke up, like walking around, and was

Jeremy Greer:

like, I don't know where the fuck I am. Like, eventually, it

Jeremy Greer:

eventually came to me and everything, but it was, it was

Jeremy Greer:

literally just like I was, I had abused my body so poorly that it

Jeremy Greer:

woke up in the middle of the night and was like, I gotta walk

Jeremy Greer:

some of this off.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yes, clearly.

Jeremy Greer:

What about you?

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh, my goodness. Well, so my sister

Marie Vigouroux:

used to sleepwalk when she was a teenager, and it was actually

Marie Vigouroux:

really kind of scary, because she would have so it started as,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, she would have dreams that she was in the Arctic, and then

Marie Vigouroux:

we would find, like, the freezer, like, everything in the

Marie Vigouroux:

freezer completely melted in the morning, So, like, she would

Marie Vigouroux:

literally, like, open the freezer and just like, stick her

Marie Vigouroux:

head in the freezer, and so, like, it was so we kind of had a

Marie Vigouroux:

few laughs about it, like it wasn't a big deal. But then she

Marie Vigouroux:

started having dreams that she was driving my dad's car, and we

Marie Vigouroux:

would find my dad's keys, like, in a different place there than

Marie Vigouroux:

where he had left them. And that's when we kind of realized

Marie Vigouroux:

that there was a very real danger that she could be trying

Marie Vigouroux:

to, like, go out at night while everybody was asleep and drive

Marie Vigouroux:

the car while not even being aware that she was trying to

Marie Vigouroux:

drive the car.

Jeremy Greer:

Wow, yeah.

Marie Vigouroux:

And so what this is making - every time I

Marie Vigouroux:

think about sleepwalking. It just makes me think about how

Marie Vigouroux:

when you are sleepwalking, or the person who is sleepwalking,

Marie Vigouroux:

completely depends on those around them to protect them from

Marie Vigouroux:

themselves, because they are not in control of their body. So

Marie Vigouroux:

like, exactly what Will is talking about here, and Will

Marie Vigouroux:

doesn't have a lot of really great people in his life to

Marie Vigouroux:

like, well, to use a phrase that we're going to hear later, watch

Marie Vigouroux:

over him.

Jeremy Greer:

Exactly, like the fact that we only see a dog with

Jeremy Greer:

him, right? Like, that's the level. In fact, we're going to

Jeremy Greer:

see that multiple times throughout this episode of his

Jeremy Greer:

dogs like wanting to protect him, which is very, very nice.

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal wonders, if Will is having any kind of feelings of

Jeremy Greer:

aggression. And once again, he brings up Jack Crawford, and

Jeremy Greer:

Will says, you know, you told me that Jack sees me as fine china,

Jeremy Greer:

but I'm beginning to feel like an old mug. And Hannibal points

Jeremy Greer:

out that Jack is willing to do anything to Will, as long as he

Jeremy Greer:

gets what he wants. And again, this is a further attempt for

Jeremy Greer:

will, excuse me, for Hannibal to put himself between Jack and

Jeremy Greer:

Will and to isolate Jack. Jesus Christ. I'm doing it again. Four

Jeremy Greer:

episodes I was good to isolate Will from Jack in an effort to

Jeremy Greer:

maintain control over him as we talked about in the past. And

Jeremy Greer:

it's, I think again, like every time we see this stuff, you're

Jeremy Greer:

just kind of a little bit more heartbroken about it.

Marie Vigouroux:

Well, there you go. Plus, like, I mean, Hannibal

Marie Vigouroux:

is doing the same thing, like, and Jack is doing the same thing

Marie Vigouroux:

too. Like, it's just both of them are trying to manipulate

Marie Vigouroux:

Will, for their own ends, right? And so to kind of see that

Marie Vigouroux:

always makes me pretty angry. You did mention last week, I

Marie Vigouroux:

think that mugs and teacups are a thing, like trademark, so in

Marie Vigouroux:

this show. So obviously I have to mention that here that he

Marie Vigouroux:

talks about being like fine china versus an old mug. But I

Marie Vigouroux:

think it also comes back to our discussion about shells, right?

Marie Vigouroux:

Like, because shells break and they also break differently

Marie Vigouroux:

depending on how solid they are. So here, like fine china versus

Marie Vigouroux:

an old mug. So like, the kind of attention that you would give to

Marie Vigouroux:

those two different things.

Jeremy Greer:

Absolutely. Yeah, we cut over to a hotel, and we

Jeremy Greer:

see a man that we have not seen before, and he is getting ice,

Jeremy Greer:

something I don't think I've ever done at a hotel. I've never

Jeremy Greer:

but whatever, like, let's just skip that. He sees a family, and

Jeremy Greer:

they're just kind of walking to their room. And then he sees a

Jeremy Greer:

couple, and this time, the couple's heads are on fire. And

Jeremy Greer:

as he looks down in the ice, he sees fire in the ice as well.

Jeremy Greer:

And I don't - this dude's hair just seemed like it was a wig,

Jeremy Greer:

like I can't believe I wrote this in the notes. I don't

Jeremy Greer:

remember writing this in the notes at all where it's the same

Jeremy Greer:

wig store Sam Winchester's from the from the season 15 thing.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah! Party City.

Jeremy Greer:

I don't know if, I don't know if that's true or

Jeremy Greer:

not, but like, his hair bothered me this entire episode, and this

Jeremy Greer:

is the first and last time I'll mention it.

Marie Vigouroux:

Honestly. So it's weird because I remember

Marie Vigouroux:

thinking, like, when I first watched it, I was like, Oh,

Marie Vigouroux:

that's a weird haircut. And then just kind of like, moving on

Marie Vigouroux:

from that. But yeah, I agree. This also made me think of, like

Marie Vigouroux:

The X Files episode with Mark Shepard. Yeah, like the way that

Marie Vigouroux:

it's made feels like a bit of a wink there.

Jeremy Greer:

We get our intro, and then we go back to the same

Jeremy Greer:

hotel, Jack and Will are arriving. They found the room

Jeremy Greer:

was registered to very classic, John Smith, and the victims are

Jeremy Greer:

Mr. And Mrs. Anderson, and they were mutilated so bad that Jack

Jeremy Greer:

has to warn Will to protect himself. He says it's soup in

Jeremy Greer:

there. And Will has a joke of like, chicken soup is not great

Jeremy Greer:

for the soul or something. But mostly, like, Will just looks

Jeremy Greer:

disturbed, and it's because he hasn't slept again, like he's

Jeremy Greer:

still not not sleeping very well. And as they enter the

Jeremy Greer:

room, we see what bothered jack so much. There's two bodies

Jeremy Greer:

nude, kneeling in prayer. They've been wired up so that

Jeremy Greer:

they stay that way, even though they're dead. And the the backs,

Jeremy Greer:

their back skin, has been carved off in such a way and pulled off

Jeremy Greer:

of the body to create angel wings. And it's an incredible,

Jeremy Greer:

incredible visual. And I've always, I was, I've apologized a

Jeremy Greer:

couple of times on this podcast to you, because I kind of sold

Jeremy Greer:

the show with like, oh yeah, the gore is good, and like, it's but

Jeremy Greer:

it's not like slasher gore. And then I started thinking about

Jeremy Greer:

all of the stuff that happens in this and I was legitimately

Jeremy Greer:

worried about this one maybe being too much for you.

Marie Vigouroux:

If I'm being honest, like this is this, to

Marie Vigouroux:

me, is like Criminal Minds level, like grossness. And so I

Marie Vigouroux:

don't love it, but I also find, I don't know, I think it's made

Marie Vigouroux:

with more respect than criminal minds and so, like, you know, it

Marie Vigouroux:

is gross, it is soup, but it's not as bad as, like, I think

Marie Vigouroux:

they could have made it.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, it could be. It could be a lot worse.

Marie Vigouroux:

It could be a lot more bloody. Let's be real.

Jeremy Greer:

And let's wait for season two before we make a

Jeremy Greer:

bunch of assumptions.

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh, no, oh no!

Jeremy Greer:

Our ERT crew is here, Beverly and the boys, as

Jeremy Greer:

I'm going to start calling them, I've decided they're talking

Jeremy Greer:

about -

Marie Vigouroux:

Beverly and the twins. How about that? Cause

Marie Vigouroux:

they are like the twins!

Jeremy Greer:

Beverly and the twins. They're talking about

Jeremy Greer:

like Vikings killing Christians and removing their lungs and

Jeremy Greer:

crucify them, which sounds horrible. And we find out that

Jeremy Greer:

the killer slept in this bed. The two bodies are arranged at

Jeremy Greer:

the foot of a bed, like looking at the head. And he left like

Jeremy Greer:

sweat stains on the bed. He threw up on the clock radio

Jeremy Greer:

that's beside the bed. Very, very weird. And Will has a great

Jeremy Greer:

line where he's just like madness slept here last night,

Jeremy Greer:

and I wanted, I wanted Jack to go Will chill the fuck out, man,

Jeremy Greer:

you're a special agent. Can't be just saying stuff like that.

Marie Vigouroux:

You can't be creepy like this, Will stop it.

Marie Vigouroux:

But so Okay, so I find that this episode worked over time to try

Marie Vigouroux:

to make parallels between will and this killer, right? Like,

Marie Vigouroux:

the sweating, the loss of control, like, just to name a

Marie Vigouroux:

couple of things. And like, obviously, maybe this is just

Marie Vigouroux:

Will projecting, but we as the audience also see these

Marie Vigouroux:

parallels. And to be entirely honest with you, for a second, I

Marie Vigouroux:

was like, did Will do this in his sleep? Like? I was unsure of

Marie Vigouroux:

if this guy, this like guy that we saw was like a hallucination,

Marie Vigouroux:

also, right? Like, and I really had to actively remind myself

Marie Vigouroux:

that Will was in a different state when this happened, and

Marie Vigouroux:

that he couldn't have done this.

Jeremy Greer:

They're gonna play with this too at the end of the

Jeremy Greer:

episode, as we see him literally hallucinating stuff, and that

Jeremy Greer:

while he's awake, which, you know, again, very, very

Jeremy Greer:

terrifying for my boy will, for anybody that likes my boy, will,

Jeremy Greer:

will thinks that this killer is elevating these victims somehow.

Jeremy Greer:

And he tells Jack, I need a, you know, a piece of plastic. And

Jeremy Greer:

again, Autumn had a comment here. She's like, you know, I

Jeremy Greer:

guess I've never picked up on the fact that he was like, give

Jeremy Greer:

me a piece of plastic so I can lay down this bed. And everybody

Jeremy Greer:

leave the room like, it's a weird thing to ask, but of

Jeremy Greer:

course, in the fiction of the show, we know like he's about to

Jeremy Greer:

do his like serial killer empathy thing, right? Like he's

Jeremy Greer:

gonna activate his his autistic superpower, as some people have

Jeremy Greer:

started calling it in the discord.

Marie Vigouroux:

We got, actually, a message from a

Marie Vigouroux:

listener, say, explaining a little bit more about that.

Jeremy Greer:

Oh, good, excellent.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, so they're basically saying that in

Marie Vigouroux:

the in the script, it's described as, and I'm gonna read

Marie Vigouroux:

"a pendulum that swings in the darkness of will Graham's mind,

Marie Vigouroux:

keeping rhythm with his heartbeat." Oh,

Jeremy Greer:

Oh, I like that.

Marie Vigouroux:

Right?

Jeremy Greer:

I like that a lot.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, me too.

Jeremy Greer:

I played, it's really difficult to make the

Jeremy Greer:

background of a video transparent, and I really wanted

Jeremy Greer:

to use the pendulum as a transition in the music video,

Jeremy Greer:

because I thought it would just be like, right on point. And I,

Jeremy Greer:

I tried. I must have spent like, three or four hours to try to

Jeremy Greer:

get it to look anywhere close to good, and just never could make

Jeremy Greer:

it happen. Like they never could. Like, got to the point

Jeremy Greer:

where I was like, do I want to spend money for somebody else to

Jeremy Greer:

do this? And I was like, no, no, I've got other stuff I can do

Jeremy Greer:

with this. Like, we can just, we can just transition between

Jeremy Greer:

clips normally, like, I don't need to do this.

Marie Vigouroux:

Honestly, you did such a good job. Like it's,

Marie Vigouroux:

it's, I remember the first time that you showed it to me, I was

Marie Vigouroux:

like, This is unbelievable. And folks, if you haven't seen this,

Marie Vigouroux:

this video, you absolutely have to go to YouTube to go see it,

Marie Vigouroux:

like it's mind blowing.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, just type in Rude Eats, and all of our

Jeremy Greer:

episodes will be on YouTube, which is the first for me.So you

Jeremy Greer:

can if people are weird enough to want to watch podcasts on

Jeremy Greer:

YouTube, then go -

Marie Vigouroux:

Apparently there are quite a few!

Jeremy Greer:

So Will lays down in the bed, and he, he starts,

Jeremy Greer:

you know, doing his narration thing. This is not who you are.

Jeremy Greer:

This is my gift to you. He speaks to the victims. And as we

Jeremy Greer:

see the rewind effect, then we see it go forward again as we

Jeremy Greer:

see these these wings raise up behind them as they fill with

Jeremy Greer:

this golden light. Allow you to become angels and now allow me

Jeremy Greer:

to sleep. He says, like basically saying that these

Jeremy Greer:

victims are going to watch over the killer as he sleeps, because

Jeremy Greer:

obviously he's not sleeping well.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, this was really the first time that I was

Marie Vigouroux:

kind of disturbed by Will impersonating the killer, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

speaking in the first person. Like, obviously, before, I was

Marie Vigouroux:

like, Oh, this is weird, but whatever, like, it didn't really

Marie Vigouroux:

bother me. But this time, I was like, This can't be healthy or

Marie Vigouroux:

good for him, right? Like, and it's clearly not like he's out

Marie Vigouroux:

walking his imaginary moose at night, like, right? Like.

Jeremy Greer:

So sorry that really got me. Walking his

Jeremy Greer:

imaginary moose is very funny.

Marie Vigouroux:

Just like, it's, it's like, Ah, this poor

Marie Vigouroux:

man. Anyway,

Jeremy Greer:

We're going to cut over to Hannibal, who is serving

Jeremy Greer:

dinner to Jack and his wife. His wife's name is Phyllis. Jack

Jeremy Greer:

calls her Bella, because when they were in Italy and when they

Jeremy Greer:

met, everybody shouted to her, Bella, Bella, which obviously

Jeremy Greer:

means she's so beautiful. And Bella, who I think we're just

Jeremy Greer:

going to refer to her as Bella, because that's what the show

Jeremy Greer:

does. Says he only calls her Phyllis when he's mad, which is

Jeremy Greer:

very fun. And I mentioned in the last episode that this is his

Jeremy Greer:

This is Lawrence Fishburne's real world in real life wife and

Jeremy Greer:

I, I love this actress to bits. I think she's she's amazing.

Marie Vigouroux:

She's incredibly pretty. So, yeah, no

Marie Vigouroux:

matter how the show decides to call her, I will be calling her

Marie Vigouroux:

Bella period. That's where we are.

Jeremy Greer:

He's - Hannibal is serving foie gras, and he

Jeremy Greer:

insists that it's from an ethical butcher. But there's

Jeremy Greer:

really, if we talk about, and I think we probably need to put a

Jeremy Greer:

content warning even above and beyond what we normally do for

Jeremy Greer:

the show about how foie gras is made. Yeah, because it's, I

Jeremy Greer:

don't know that there's an ethical way that you could do

Jeremy Greer:

that to an animal.

Marie Vigouroux:

I don't know if there is an ethical way to make

Marie Vigouroux:

foie gras, frankly, because the whole the way that you do make

Marie Vigouroux:

foie gras is that you have to basically make sure that your

Marie Vigouroux:

goose, or your duck is like its liver is fatty, and the way to

Marie Vigouroux:

do that is to overfeed it. The thing is, you can't really

Marie Vigouroux:

overfeed birds without, like, literally stuffing them. And so,

Marie Vigouroux:

yeah, I'm not going to go into more details, but that's, that's

Marie Vigouroux:

how you make foie gras.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, it's and Bella points this out. She wants

Jeremy Greer:

to skip this course, not because it's not because, she says,

Jeremy Greer:

because it's too cruel. And this is when Hannibal insists that he

Jeremy Greer:

has an ethical butcher, and you know, he says that there's no

Jeremy Greer:

need for unnecessary suffering, and then talks about how we as

Jeremy Greer:

as humans, like we, we learned compassion from animals, but we

Jeremy Greer:

learned cruelty, we gave cruelty as something that we gave, we

Jeremy Greer:

gave we gave to ourselves. And it's just the way that Hannibal

Jeremy Greer:

speaks, like you kind of feel like he's talking on like five

Jeremy Greer:

different levels at one time, and also the fact that we just

Jeremy Greer:

again. Every single meal that Hannibal serves you should. You

Jeremy Greer:

should. There's probably human meat in it somewhere. So, like,

Jeremy Greer:

if you couple that with the awfulness that is the foie gras,

Jeremy Greer:

and to begin with, like, I'm so glad Bella's skipping courses.

Marie Vigouroux:

Honestly, same, like, that was literally, I was

Marie Vigouroux:

like, the butchering is literally the least of your

Marie Vigouroux:

problems, buddy. Like, how did you make this foie gras that is

Marie Vigouroux:

probably human liver? Like, how I don't, I don't even want to go

Marie Vigouroux:

any further in this conversation, because I. I am

Marie Vigouroux:

completely grossed out at this point.

Jeremy Greer:

So Hannibal begins to serve wine, and as he does,

Jeremy Greer:

as he leans over Bella, he smells her perfume and

Jeremy Greer:

identifies it, and then he - as they congratulate him on his

Jeremy Greer:

sense of smell, he says, You know, I developed it since I was

Jeremy Greer:

a young child. I even knew my my teacher had stomach cancer

Jeremy Greer:

before he did. And he gives like, a significant look at

Jeremy Greer:

Bella, and you've got a note in here about, like, Where's this

Jeremy Greer:

coming from?

Marie Vigouroux:

Because I'm like, when? Like, because my

Marie Vigouroux:

question here, that that I entered in the notes is, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

when were the books written? Because again, like, I'm very

Marie Vigouroux:

weary of, like, Googling anything which otherwise I would

Marie Vigouroux:

have Googled, right? I don't. I just don't want to be spoiled

Marie Vigouroux:

for the show, because, like, there's like, this trope about,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, very creepy men and their sense of smell. And I was kind

Marie Vigouroux:

of wondering if this originated from the books or not, or if

Marie Vigouroux:

this was just a long standing thing. Of creepy men smelling

Jeremy Greer:

The first book, and the book that the TV show is

Jeremy Greer:

people.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah. Okay. Well, it is just like predators right out in the

Jeremy Greer:

based on, it came out in 1981. And they, I think there was, I

Jeremy Greer:

think the last book was somewhere in the early aughts,

Jeremy Greer:

if I remember correctly. So they've been, they've been going

Jeremy Greer:

on for a while. The smelling thing is definitely from the

Jeremy Greer:

books in the we're gonna get to. There's some stuff that I really

Jeremy Greer:

want to talk to you about that's not we're just not quite there

Jeremy Greer:

yet, but I'm just trying to limit it to the smell stuff. So

Jeremy Greer:

yeah, he's got just an extremely heightened sense of smell. And

Jeremy Greer:

it's, it's something that, like you'll see in the movies, he,

Jeremy Greer:

you see this later in the episode, where he literally

Jeremy Greer:

smells Will, and it's, it's part of the way that he consumes the

Jeremy Greer:

world, right? Like it's part of the way that he, he, he's

Jeremy Greer:

developed this sense, and it's extraordinary, like, it's his

Jeremy Greer:

ability to like separate smells and to identify things from far

Jeremy Greer:

away, like, helps him in being a serial killer in a variety of

Jeremy Greer:

different ways, and also just helps him fuck with people also,

Jeremy Greer:

like, that doesn't that doesn't help. It doesn't hurt at all,

Jeremy Greer:

but it's definitely from the books.

Jeremy Greer:

wild, where, like, they will smell their prey from far away,

Jeremy Greer:

like, that's that's what it's making me think about.

Jeremy Greer:

So the next course is pork, and this time, He reassures Bella

Jeremy Greer:

that it was an especially supercilious pig. I love the

Jeremy Greer:

fact I hate that reading your notes. I'm so sorry.

Marie Vigouroux:

Go ahead!

Jeremy Greer:

But you said you had to look it up, and me and

Jeremy Greer:

Autumn looked it up at the same time, because I was making

Jeremy Greer:

notes, and I was making notes, and I was like, What was that

Jeremy Greer:

word that he used? Supercilious? And we knew it from context,

Jeremy Greer:

right? Like, we kind of figured it out that, like, what it

Jeremy Greer:

meant. And then I realized, like, supercilious can be used

Jeremy Greer:

it in the form, also for rude. So he's literally saying that it

Jeremy Greer:

was an especially rude pig. And I didn't even think about this,

Jeremy Greer:

this this note that you have this question that you have.

Marie Vigouroux:

Like, is he referring to a police officer?

Marie Vigouroux:

Like, is this what's going on? Like, are they eating? Is he

Marie Vigouroux:

feeding a police officer to a police officer? Because, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

that's, whew!

Jeremy Greer:

Oh my God, and especially, supercilious pig

Jeremy Greer:

referring to a cop is, like, just, it's so, it's so, like,

Jeremy Greer:

crass and fancy at the same time that, like, only Hannibal could

Jeremy Greer:

make that happen, right? It's so good.

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh yeah.

Jeremy Greer:

It's so good. And then we're gonna go from this

Jeremy Greer:

meal to Quantico, where it's time to look at the bodies.

Jeremy Greer:

Beverly recites a quote about the angels going to the Lord,

Jeremy Greer:

and one of the one of the twins, says that it's Robert Frost, and

Jeremy Greer:

Will correctly says, No, that's actually Jim Morrison from the

Jeremy Greer:

Doors, and the guy that looks like very, very confused like

Jeremy Greer:

but the Doors, wait a minute, we find out that the victims were

Jeremy Greer:

alive when they were skinned. And Will says that they they

Jeremy Greer:

weren't praying to Him. They were praying for him. He's

Jeremy Greer:

afraid for some reason. And that's when they start analyzing

Jeremy Greer:

the contents of the of the vomit they found, and figure out,

Jeremy Greer:

based on the medications, that he has a brain, brain tumor and

Jeremy Greer:

Will says he's afraid of dying in his sleep. He's making the

Jeremy Greer:

angels to watch over him. And when you started this episode, I

Jeremy Greer:

sent you a DM that was like, take like, try not to talk, try

Jeremy Greer:

not to think about supernatural in this episode challenge. And

Jeremy Greer:

like, at this point you're like, hmmm.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, listeners, you know, if you, if

Marie Vigouroux:

you, if you drink alcohol, then take a shot every time that we

Marie Vigouroux:

are going to mention Supernatural. And if you don't

Marie Vigouroux:

drink alcohol, then take a sip from your water bottle because

Marie Vigouroux:

you know you're dehydrated. It's like, make sure to drink your

Marie Vigouroux:

water every time that we mention Supernatural. And I am going to

Marie Vigouroux:

mention Supernatural here because I'm so sorry, but like

Marie Vigouroux:

angels watching over him, like this was 2013 so obviously the

Marie Vigouroux:

idea of like, watching over angels watching over somebody,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, is something from the Bible, but like, it's so present

Marie Vigouroux:

in Supernatural that you can't, like, not think about it,

Marie Vigouroux:

especially given that we've both done a Supernatural podcast in

Marie Vigouroux:

The past, although obviously this is like a real extreme

Marie Vigouroux:

perversion of what we think about like in Supernatural with

Marie Vigouroux:

that phrase.

Jeremy Greer:

Of course, yeah, this is, this is something much

Jeremy Greer:

more violent and awful than than the kind of where we where we

Jeremy Greer:

kind of heard this original phrase from. We jump over to

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal's office, and he opens the door, and Bella is there.

Jeremy Greer:

She's. Scheduled an appointment. Throughout the conversation, we

Jeremy Greer:

know that she is hiding something from Jack, and she

Jeremy Greer:

says it's to spare him the worry. I love Hannibal response

Jeremy Greer:

to this that he has room for one more worry. This is just a very

Jeremy Greer:

good line.

Marie Vigouroux:

And I think this really goes to show how

Marie Vigouroux:

good Hannibal is as a therapist, which I really, really hate, but

Marie Vigouroux:

I think it also really speaks to how competent he can be when

Marie Vigouroux:

he's not, like, putting his own whims above his duty to his

Marie Vigouroux:

patients.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, absolutely. Bella brings up that there could

Jeremy Greer:

be a conflict of interest, because, you know, he has a

Jeremy Greer:

professional relationship with Jack, and obviously, Jack is her

Jeremy Greer:

husband, and Hannibal is just like, nah. That's aight.

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh, my God. The thing about a conflict of

Marie Vigouroux:

interest is that it's not even as much about the actual

Marie Vigouroux:

conflict of interest as it is about the appearance of one. And

Marie Vigouroux:

so like, 100% there's a conflict of interest here. Like, oh

Jeremy Greer:

Like, oh yeah. But Hannibal, like, you know, his,

Jeremy Greer:

his, he's gonna do everything he can to get more information

Jeremy Greer:

about chat, right? Like, that's, that's his, one of his, one of

Jeremy Greer:

his main motivations for this. She talks about that she started

Jeremy Greer:

to hide whatever this is, and I'm being coy, because we're

Jeremy Greer:

gonna, she's gonna, we're gonna find out what it is in a little

Jeremy Greer:

while, and we're gonna talk about it more detail then. But

Jeremy Greer:

she's she was starting to hide this because she wanted to

Jeremy Greer:

maintain her dignity, even though now she knows she has

Jeremy Greer:

plenty of indignity to look forward to. And, you know, I

Jeremy Greer:

think anybody with any kind of illness can identify with this

Jeremy Greer:

of having this desire to hide things for people, but also like

Jeremy Greer:

knowing that you're not going to be able to like they're going to

Jeremy Greer:

see all of you, and in some ways that you wouldn't normally want

Jeremy Greer:

people to see you.

Marie Vigouroux:

You know. So this topic is an interesting

Marie Vigouroux:

one, because I come at it from an academic angle, because that

Marie Vigouroux:

is literally like what I study, particularly like the

Marie Vigouroux:

methodology behind, like, learning about people living

Marie Vigouroux:

with illness, but also how they make meaning of that. And so

Marie Vigouroux:

this, this episode really tickles my brain, because she's

Marie Vigouroux:

talking about, like the indignity of illness, like of

Marie Vigouroux:

seeing and having your body breaking down, and also of

Marie Vigouroux:

having to depend on others for survival. And in our society,

Marie Vigouroux:

the way that it's it's set up as very individualistic like this

Marie Vigouroux:

is a very terrible indignity right to no longer be self

Marie Vigouroux:

sufficient. So it speaks to a lot of things.

Jeremy Greer:

Interesting I don't know a lot about what you

Jeremy Greer:

do. And every time you mention something, I'm like, What the

Jeremy Greer:

fuck does she do? What is this one day I'm gonna, I'm gonna get

Jeremy Greer:

you on the outtakes and be like, so what is your job? Where do

Jeremy Greer:

you work? What is your employee ID? I need to know more about

Jeremy Greer:

that.

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh, my God, we could do that.

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal says, in response to this, this that the

Jeremy Greer:

only indignity I see is resentment. Why do you resent

Jeremy Greer:

your husband? And she resents Jack for having too much to

Jeremy Greer:

worry about, obviously, like Jack is in the world, you know,

Jeremy Greer:

doing his cop thing, like saving lives, and she doesn't want to

Jeremy Greer:

put this on him. And I just want to take a quick break from this

Jeremy Greer:

conversation to note that, like, they're sitting the shot on this

Jeremy Greer:

is just gorgeous. Like Hannibal's office is an amazing

Jeremy Greer:

set piece, set by itself, and there's a reason they keep

Jeremy Greer:

coming back to it, but them sitting like across from each

Jeremy Greer:

other in chairs, and it's just a perfectly divided scene, with

Jeremy Greer:

him on one side and her on the other is so so so good. I tried

Jeremy Greer:

to use this in the video, like, in four different places, and

Jeremy Greer:

was like, this doesn't work, dang it.

Marie Vigouroux:

One thing also that I have to say I was really

Marie Vigouroux:

impressed with is how, again, like, how beautiful she looks on

Marie Vigouroux:

screen. And the reason why I'm saying that is because if you,

Marie Vigouroux:

if you watch a lot of TV, you'll notice that, especially in

Marie Vigouroux:

darker lit scenes, a lot, a lot of the time, yeah, a lot of the

Marie Vigouroux:

time, Black people will not appear - like you can tell if

Marie Vigouroux:

the cinematographer has been used to or can light dark skin

Marie Vigouroux:

as well as they can light light skin and here like there is no

Marie Vigouroux:

difference in the way that these two people of clearly different

Marie Vigouroux:

skin colors are are lit, and it's just so beautiful, so well

Marie Vigouroux:

done. And you and I just love to think about the work that goes

Marie Vigouroux:

behind this also.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah. It reminds me of like there was a push for

Jeremy Greer:

in the video game journalism world of an open world game

Jeremy Greer:

where you, like, create your own character, or whatever, people

Jeremy Greer:

like, got to the point where they were like, where's where,

Jeremy Greer:

or Where's black hair at where, you know, like, why don't? Why

Jeremy Greer:

aren't you including this? Like, I'm creating this character, and

Jeremy Greer:

you're letting me, like, pick any any skin tone, including,

Jeremy Greer:

like, orange and green, but like, you don't have dreads or

Jeremy Greer:

rows or locks, I should say, you know, you don't have any of that

Jeremy Greer:

stuff. And that's been a thing that's happened over the last,

Jeremy Greer:

like probably five or 10 years, that we've seen more and more

Jeremy Greer:

that stuff Incorporated, which is good, which is kind of cool.

Jeremy Greer:

She She also brings up the idea of Hannibal seeing the two of

Jeremy Greer:

them together, which Hannibal just just kind of flatly says,

Jeremy Greer:

No, he would recommend him to someone, recommend them to

Jeremy Greer:

someone else who specializes in couples therapy. And I think

Jeremy Greer:

this is actually because, like, he wants to know everything he

Jeremy Greer:

can about Jack without Jack knowing about it. His his goal

Jeremy Greer:

is to collect as much information to apply this

Jeremy Greer:

control over Jack's life as much as he can without Jack knowing

Jeremy Greer:

about it.

Marie Vigouroux:

And I think it's also because, like, the end

Marie Vigouroux:

goal is Will, right? Like, the reason why he wants to get

Marie Vigouroux:

close, but not too close, to Jack, is so that he can use the

Marie Vigouroux:

information that he gets from Jack on Will, um, like, Jack is

Marie Vigouroux:

not his end goal here.

Jeremy Greer:

No, no. Jack is, in fact, in the way of his end

Jeremy Greer:

goal, right? Like, this is just a way to move Jack, like he's

Jeremy Greer:

learning everything he can to basically drive a wedge between

Jeremy Greer:

Will and Jack so that he can control Will more, which is his

Jeremy Greer:

goal. He wants that man. God, damn, Will Graham!

Marie Vigouroux:

Will Graham! Give me Will Graham! But there

Marie Vigouroux:

is one thing though, because, like, I do want to start this

Marie Vigouroux:

conversation that you know he does kind of like hints that

Marie Vigouroux:

they could use couples therapy, which, like, yeah, because, I

Marie Vigouroux:

mean, I've never been married, so maybe you can tell me a bit

Marie Vigouroux:

more about that. But like, you don't get to not telling your

Marie Vigouroux:

spouse about your state, about, like, your illness that, you

Marie Vigouroux:

know, I'm trying to be coy about this, even though I have it

Marie Vigouroux:

like, written out. You don't get to that point in a vacuum,

Marie Vigouroux:

right? Like there's gonna be a real big history of like stuff

Marie Vigouroux:

to get to that point and to kind of bring back the Iranian

Marie Vigouroux:

yogurt, like the Iranian yogurt is not the problem here.

Jeremy Greer:

I can't wait for people to hear that. Like, we're

Jeremy Greer:

gonna get so much, so much feedback from that at feedback

Jeremy Greer:

from that. I think I want to talk about this in depth,

Jeremy Greer:

especially from the perspective of someone who has an illness

Jeremy Greer:

and that is married, but I want to wait till we actually have

Jeremy Greer:

the conversation between Jack and Bella towards towards the

Jeremy Greer:

end of the episode.

Marie Vigouroux:

Perfect.

Jeremy Greer:

I just think that would be the best place for it.

Jeremy Greer:

Meanwhile, we're going to skip ahead in time a little bit, and

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal is now helping Will with his case, looking for

Jeremy Greer:

books. At the same time, kind of - it's real difficult to make

Jeremy Greer:

notes on the conversation they're having, because Hannibal

Jeremy Greer:

will talk about this case and then switch it back to Jack

Jeremy Greer:

Crawford and at the same time, like, go back to Will's mother,

Jeremy Greer:

go back to the case like it bounces all over the place at a

Jeremy Greer:

very like, easily readable format. But it's difficult to

Jeremy Greer:

make notes about this because they're all over the place. And

Jeremy Greer:

he specifically says, Will says he wonders how they can profile

Jeremy Greer:

somebody with a brain tumor that's not acting rationally,

Jeremy Greer:

like profiling a person is all based on predicting behavior

Jeremy Greer:

right of being able to see the factors in someone's life to

Jeremy Greer:

make them make the decisions that they do. And if you put a

Jeremy Greer:

brain tumor in the mix, then that that means that their

Jeremy Greer:

decisions they're making aren't necessarily rational, or they're

Jeremy Greer:

not, you know, they're not predictable.

Marie Vigouroux:

They're not fully in control.

Jeremy Greer:

Yes. And then he specifically says, If you can't

Jeremy Greer:

be God, can you become him? Which is -

Marie Vigouroux:

Take a shot everyone, because I'm obviously

Marie Vigouroux:

thinking supernatural.

Jeremy Greer:

Yes. We're definitely both thinking

Jeremy Greer:

Wupernatural. Hannibal turns at this conversation on Will and

Jeremy Greer:

says, Do you feel abandoned? And Will kind of insist that he

Jeremy Greer:

doesn't feel abandoned, specifically about Jack. And

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal responds, you say he hasn't abandoned you, but you

Jeremy Greer:

find yourself wandering around in the middle of the night and

Jeremy Greer:

man, like you just want Hannibal like, there's a there's a level

Jeremy Greer:

of like, I want Hannibal to be good that I'm discovering inside

Jeremy Greer:

myself, which is a crazy thing to say, because he's feeding

Jeremy Greer:

human flesh to to other people unknowingly, and he's killing

Jeremy Greer:

people and all this other stuff, but I just want him to be good

Jeremy Greer:

for Will?

Marie Vigouroux:

I really feel that, though, like, I really

Marie Vigouroux:

feel that I think, I think that's a very human feeling to

Marie Vigouroux:

be like, You know what? You have such potential, like, to see the

Marie Vigouroux:

potential in somebody, rather than like, who they choose to

Marie Vigouroux:

be. Yeah, I feel that.

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal starts to wonder if, well, first Will kind

Jeremy Greer:

of picks up on this. He's like, are you trying to alienate me

Jeremy Greer:

from Jack?

Marie Vigouroux:

And like, Hannibal is really using the

Marie Vigouroux:

info that he got from Bella right to further manipulate

Marie Vigouroux:

Will. Like, that's what we were talking about before, but he's

Marie Vigouroux:

already inferred that, like, during a large part of their

Marie Vigouroux:

marriage, Bella has felt abandoned by Jack, and he

Marie Vigouroux:

applies this to Will to kind of get a reaction. Because he's

Marie Vigouroux:

like, Well, if this man is doing this to his wife, he's 100%

Marie Vigouroux:

doing this to other people in his life.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, absolutely. What a great observation. I

Jeremy Greer:

didn't pick up on that, but I. Absolutely he's doing that. And

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal turns this question and just basically starts talking

Jeremy Greer:

about the killer again. And he starts, he basically suggesting,

Jeremy Greer:

like, oh, like, we could probably make him, like, hurt

Jeremy Greer:

himself. We can make him become self destructive. And then he

Jeremy Greer:

says he's making angels to pray over him while he sleeps, who

Jeremy Greer:

prays over us when we sleep. And I don't know, I didn't send it

Jeremy Greer:

to you because it's full of spoilers, but there's a Reddit

Jeremy Greer:

thread that's basically like me and my husband talk like

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal to amuse ourselves. And I mentioned like me and Autumn

Jeremy Greer:

do this with the Tell me Will thing. But like, it's asking,

Jeremy Greer:

like, a really complex question about something simple. And it's

Jeremy Greer:

just so good. It's so it's so good the way that Hannibal

Jeremy Greer:

talks, and like, you can definitely impersonate that of

Jeremy Greer:

like, Tell me Will this a plate of fruit is a representation of

Jeremy Greer:

the bounty of the country. What is your bounty? Literally

Jeremy Greer:

anything. And it's so much fun.

Marie Vigouroux:

I love that! I you know he's also, like,

Unknown:

Absolutely. Yeah, it's, you know, from the first

Unknown:

regardless of how predictable or unpredictable, or like, hammy,

Unknown:

episode, Will said that he didn't like being in therapy. It

Unknown:

this is like he really is getting under Will's skin,

Unknown:

because he's, you know, he's getting through his usual walls

Unknown:

of protection or his shell. And it's, it kind of makes me sad a

Unknown:

lot, because, like, Will trusts Hannibal, like, immediately, in

Unknown:

part because he's a therapist, but there's also more than that,

Unknown:

right? Like, I don't know that Will would have trusted just any

Unknown:

other therapist the way that he trusts Hannibal. And I just, I

Unknown:

can't wait to, kind of like, scratch at that a little bit more.

Unknown:

never really worked on him, quote, unquote. So this has to

Unknown:

be the first time that he's gone this deep with anybody. And I

Unknown:

think he only can because he views Hannibal as also like a

Unknown:

consultant to these cases, right? Like they're working on

Unknown:

this stuff together. It's not just Jack that they're working

Unknown:

on, or, excuse me, not, just Will that they're working on

Unknown:

Jesus Christ Jeremy. Get it straight.

Marie Vigouroux:

But I also think that Will sees Hannibal as

Marie Vigouroux:

an equal, to a certain degree, like, in a way that because, you

Marie Vigouroux:

know, we talk a lot about Will, like, not finding where he fits

Marie Vigouroux:

in, for some reason he fits right in with Hannibal, right?

Jeremy Greer:

And I think the magic of the show is that

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal looks at Will the same way, like, even if he wants to

Jeremy Greer:

control Will, like, there's something about Will that has

Jeremy Greer:

him just transfixed. And it's that like, oh, he could be just

Jeremy Greer:

like me. And it's, it's fascinating to watch the two

Jeremy Greer:

play off of one another. We go from Hannibal's office to Jack's

Jeremy Greer:

bedroom. This is the second time we've been in Jack's bedroom,

Jeremy Greer:

which is a weird thing to say, and Bella and him are getting

Jeremy Greer:

ready for bed, and Jack knows something is wrong, and he's

Jeremy Greer:

reaching out to her. She kind of pushes this off, as you know,

Jeremy Greer:

problems at work a lot on my mind, kind of thing. And she

Jeremy Greer:

describes it as out of his jurisdiction. And then Jack does

Jeremy Greer:

a particularly awful thing, of saying, I won't even insult you

Jeremy Greer:

by asking you if there's if there's someone else, which is a

Jeremy Greer:

way of asking if there's someone else. As she points out to

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal later, I hate this kind of stuff. Like, I just, I don't

Jeremy Greer:

like that kind of phrasing. I don't I just it feels very

Jeremy Greer:

manipulative, which, of course, Jack is in his professional

Jeremy Greer:

life, so it makes sense that he would use that with his wife.

Jeremy Greer:

But also, like, I don't try to manipulate my wife.

Marie Vigouroux:

He treats her the same way that he treated

Marie Vigouroux:

that little boy in his car in the last episode.

Jeremy Greer:

Exactly. Yeah, kind of, and it's, it just

Jeremy Greer:

doesn't feel good.

Marie Vigouroux:

No, it's such a lack of respect towards your

Marie Vigouroux:

spouse, in my opinion, like, and again, it shows, I think, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

a long standing pattern of behavior like you don't get to

Marie Vigouroux:

that point without having done this quite a few times before.

Jeremy Greer:

And but at the same time, though, I can see

Jeremy Greer:

there's been times where, like, I knew something was going on

Jeremy Greer:

with Autumn and she wasn't ready to talk about it, right? And the

Jeremy Greer:

thing that you realize as a long term partner is, like, she's

Jeremy Greer:

gonna tell me, like, I just have to wait, like me trying to

Jeremy Greer:

pressure her into saying something. And Jack kind of gets

Jeremy Greer:

this here, but I look at Jack and I'm like, You guys are older

Jeremy Greer:

than I am. I don't know how long you've been married. It sounds

Jeremy Greer:

like a long time. If y'all met when you were in the service,

Jeremy Greer:

right? Like, before, even before the FBI. So y'all been married a

Jeremy Greer:

while. You should know how to do this. Like, if I can figure this

Jeremy Greer:

out in the first five to 10 years of my marriage, like, and

Jeremy Greer:

really, guys should just know how to do this in general. Like,

Jeremy Greer:

it just takes us a long time. For some reason, we're just real

Jeremy Greer:

dumb, and we've been probably, you know, conditioned by our

Jeremy Greer:

environment to be shitty assholes. So it takes us a while

Jeremy Greer:

to lose that, that shell, so to speak. But it just, it just

Jeremy Greer:

really, it frustrates me, and also, like, I have empathy for

Jeremy Greer:

Jack at the same time of wanting to know what's up.

Marie Vigouroux:

Of course, and I think, I think that's, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

definitely very relatable. Like, I totally get that. But like,

Marie Vigouroux:

not like this.

Jeremy Greer:

Not like this, exactly.

Marie Vigouroux:

Not like this.

Jeremy Greer:

We cut over to Cleveland, Ohio. Our killer is

Jeremy Greer:

walking down the street when he sees a security guard with his

Jeremy Greer:

head on fire. And then we cut almost immediately to Will who

Jeremy Greer:

is staring at a body that is suspended dozens of feet in the

Jeremy Greer:

air with, of course, more more skin wings made. Jack is, is

Jeremy Greer:

curious about why he's using angels and Will points out that,

Jeremy Greer:

like, it's not a biblical thing, because in the Bible, you know,

Jeremy Greer:

angels don't have wings. That's that's a, that's a, like a

Jeremy Greer:

modern religion, not a modern but that's like a religious

Jeremy Greer:

thing. And just like the idea of trying to turn a human into a

Jeremy Greer:

biblically accurate angel is terrifying.

Marie Vigouroux:

There you go. Biblically accurate Angel.

Marie Vigouroux:

Everybody take a sip of your water bottle, because obviously

Marie Vigouroux:

I'm thinking about I am the size of your Chrysler Building.

Jeremy Greer:

It's so many questions, so many questions

Jeremy Greer:

that show never answers about this. The six sentence line of

Jeremy Greer:

I'm the size of a Chrysler Building. They also find

Jeremy Greer:

testicles. It's and they come to the conclusion that this dude

Jeremy Greer:

cut off his own testicles, which is a wild thing, and not really

Jeremy Greer:

followed up on in any means, like I would imagine, there's,

Jeremy Greer:

there's a lot of the things that the show takes liberty with. And

Jeremy Greer:

I would imagine, like, invasive surgery, like that would leave,

Jeremy Greer:

I don't know, would make it so that you can't really walk

Jeremy Greer:

already, you know what I'm saying, like, but this dude just

Jeremy Greer:

-

Marie Vigouroux:

I can imagine that it would be incredibly

Marie Vigouroux:

painful. And I think, but, and yes, 100% like this. I was like,

Marie Vigouroux:

this does not, this doesn't, but it also reminds me of how loosey

Marie Vigouroux:

goosey they're playing it with the the ERT people, right? Like

Marie Vigouroux:

the process of the investigation and everything. So I'm like,

Marie Vigouroux:

Okay, I need to just, like, not think about this too hard,

Marie Vigouroux:

because at the end of the day, the show is not about this

Marie Vigouroux:

investigation, it's about the relationships that are

Marie Vigouroux:

developing through it.

Jeremy Greer:

And normally I'm okay, but when there's like, a

Jeremy Greer:

man's testicles on the ground, they're like, well, he, you

Jeremy Greer:

know, he castrated himself, or whatever, and I'm like, I don't

Jeremy Greer:

even Okay, all right,let's Okay. Jack begins to pressure Will,

Jeremy Greer:

you know, what is he doing? Why is he doing this? What is he

Jeremy Greer:

thinking? And eventually, Will snaps. You're the head of the

Jeremy Greer:

behavioral unit, Jack, why don't you come up with your own

Jeremy Greer:

answers? And Jack marches forward, turns around, and you

Jeremy Greer:

could see the rest of the ERT crew scattering as he looks at

Jeremy Greer:

Will and says, I did not hear that. And Will immediately

Jeremy Greer:

apologizes and says, No, I'm sorry you didn't.

Marie Vigouroux:

This is really funny, because, like, everybody

Marie Vigouroux:

scatters right when this happens, and it's, it really is

Marie Vigouroux:

like the siblings walking away when one kid challenges dad,

Marie Vigouroux:

right? Like, bringing back the theme of family. But also, I

Marie Vigouroux:

feel like you've said this phrase to me before, like, why

Marie Vigouroux:

don't you come up with your own answers? And I'm like, Oh, my

Marie Vigouroux:

God, you're, you're playing me. Great job, by the way. That was

Jeremy Greer:

We have this wonderful shot of will literally

Jeremy Greer:

great.

Jeremy Greer:

standing under the underneath this angel looking up. And I

Jeremy Greer:

just just sometimes the cinematography really gets to

Jeremy Greer:

me. I just need to point it out.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, it is really beautiful, and it's so

Marie Vigouroux:

eerie, and it's like, is this foreshadowing, like, who is

Marie Vigouroux:

watching over Will, right?

Jeremy Greer:

Back at the morgue. We have this really

Jeremy Greer:

wonderful conversation between Beverly and Will. She's She's

Jeremy Greer:

shocked at what he said to Jack, and says that it feels like the

Jeremy Greer:

first time I heard my mom curse, which is very funny as somebody

Jeremy Greer:

whose mother, like, had the mouth of a sailor, like, like, I

Jeremy Greer:

can, I can, I could see, like, oh, like, my mom never said the

Jeremy Greer:

word fuck before. Then I heard her say fuck when I was 15, and

Jeremy Greer:

it would blew my mind, but I was like, I've been hearing that

Jeremy Greer:

since I was like, like a baby. But she asked if he's if he's

Jeremy Greer:

okay, and he in like, a moment of, I guess, vulnerability. He

Jeremy Greer:

says, Do I seem different? And she very casually says, like,

Jeremy Greer:

you're a little different. And I really, really love the line

Jeremy Greer:

delivery on that, like you're a little different. And she says,

Jeremy Greer:

you know, hey, you would know something is off with me,

Jeremy Greer:

because if you asked me, I would tell you. Can you return the

Jeremy Greer:

favor? In other words, saying, like, if I just asked you, if

Jeremy Greer:

you're okay, would you just tell me so that we could, I could

Jeremy Greer:

help you. Absolutely love this.

Marie Vigouroux:

It's really lovely. I mean, Beverly is, I've

Marie Vigouroux:

said this before, but I want to say it again, because she really

Marie Vigouroux:

is the only person to treat Will like a human being with his own

Marie Vigouroux:

will, right? Like she treats him like a fellow person, which you

Marie Vigouroux:

know, neither Jack nor Hannibal nor frankly, Alana Bloom are

Marie Vigouroux:

doing so I really appreciate Beverly in this moment.

Jeremy Greer:

They've they start identifying the victims. We're

Jeremy Greer:

going to run through a bunch of this case stuff real quick. The

Jeremy Greer:

interesting thing is, the victims are all criminals. The

Jeremy Greer:

couple like to capture women and rape and murder them. They say

Jeremy Greer:

the security guard was a convicted felon, which used to

Jeremy Greer:

sound a lot worse to me, until I realized, like, literally, what

Jeremy Greer:

you can do to be a felon in this country is very, very small. So

Jeremy Greer:

it doesn't seem like he deserved to have his skin - nobody

Jeremy Greer:

deserves to have your skin taken off. But like to lump him in

Jeremy Greer:

with the rapers and the murderers. I was like, feels a

Jeremy Greer:

little weird.

Marie Vigouroux:

I know, right. Plus, like, technically, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

if you've been convicted for something and you're now out, it

Marie Vigouroux:

just means that like, you have, technically, according to the -

Marie Vigouroux:

to what we have decided is justice in this society, you

Marie Vigouroux:

have paid back your debt. And so, like, what?

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, what is he? Why is he a bad dude? And

Jeremy Greer:

there's the idea that this guy's a vigilante, but will shuts that

Jeremy Greer:

down. Autumn. Was like, Do you think he's Daredevil? I was

Jeremy Greer:

like, No, I don't think he's Daredevil.

Marie Vigouroux:

You know, the angels, the Catholicism.

Jeremy Greer:

He's got a lot of, he's got a lot of guilt. The

Jeremy Greer:

Daredevil does. He carries that guilt around with him, but he

Jeremy Greer:

thinks that the angel maker is trying to become God. He doesn't

Jeremy Greer:

have to know that they're criminals or bad people or

Jeremy Greer:

whatever. He just has to believe because there's the question of,

Jeremy Greer:

like, you know, how does he know how does he know that they're

Jeremy Greer:

bad people? And he, you know, he can't. He doesn't. There's

Jeremy Greer:

nothing Supernatural in this, except for all of the

Jeremy Greer:

Supernatural references.

Marie Vigouroux:

Take a shot.

Jeremy Greer:

But you know, he's just choosing to believe that

Jeremy Greer:

these people are bad, which is kind of, you know, which is

Jeremy Greer:

terrifying.

Marie Vigouroux:

It is, it is, because then that's again, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

that's nowhere near justice, right?

Jeremy Greer:

Absolutely. Yeah, that's just, that's just, you

Jeremy Greer:

know, random murders at that point. Yeah, Bella is back at

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal's office, and they briefly discussed Jack's

Jeremy Greer:

accusation of cheating. And Hannibal points out that she

Jeremy Greer:

seems more betrayed by Jack than her own body. And this is when

Jeremy Greer:

she finally reveals that she has cancer. There's no point in mad

Jeremy Greer:

- There's no point in being mad at cancer for being cancer. And

Jeremy Greer:

she knows that this cancer will kill her regardless of whatever

Jeremy Greer:

treatment she takes. And she has this line that says, I am slowly

Jeremy Greer:

shrinking while this tiny thing grows larger every day. And it's

Jeremy Greer:

this is kind of emotional to talk about, since I was

Jeremy Greer:

diagnosed with cancer about a year ago. This is all - I'm sure

Jeremy Greer:

she's had people in her life that have had cancer, or she's

Jeremy Greer:

talked to people, because it's a very real feeling of you can't

Jeremy Greer:

really be mad at it, like there's no point, right? It's

Jeremy Greer:

just a wasted energy. And I don't know, I don't wanna live

Jeremy Greer:

my life being mad at something that I can't change, and this

Jeremy Greer:

idea of it growing larger while I'm shrinking every day, luckily

Jeremy Greer:

enough, like I'm in stasis, like there's nothing growing larger

Jeremy Greer:

inside me, but at the same time, like during the last year of not

Jeremy Greer:

knowing, of being completely in the dark, and just like every

Jeremy Greer:

three months getting updates basically about how all of this

Jeremy Greer:

awful treatment is going it's really, really difficult not to

Jeremy Greer:

think that you were shrinking just in terms of the people that

Jeremy Greer:

you want to talk to, the food that you want to eat, the things

Jeremy Greer:

that you want to experience. You know, we stopped going out. We

Jeremy Greer:

when I was going through infusion therapy, like, I'm not

Jeremy Greer:

going out to restaurants at the same time, right? Like we

Jeremy Greer:

weren't, I wasn't going to movies, but I wasn't being

Jeremy Greer:

social, I wasn't going to work as much that kind of thing. And

Jeremy Greer:

so your life shrinks down, and it becomes, like kind of focused

Jeremy Greer:

on this one thing. And it's really difficult to to watch

Jeremy Greer:

something like this, especially with this wonderful actress she

Jeremy Greer:

is, and just and not get emotional about this. And we're

Jeremy Greer:

going to talk about it a little bit more towards the end, like I

Jeremy Greer:

said, but this line really, really struck home with me.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, I listen like this is - what she's

Marie Vigouroux:

describing in, in this, in this fictional story, what you're

Marie Vigouroux:

describing based on your lived experience, like it's, it is

Marie Vigouroux:

very, very close to what what people describe when they have,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, chronic illness, right? Like, whether that is cancer or

Marie Vigouroux:

something else, your life shrinks for all the reasons that

Marie Vigouroux:

you mentioned. And so I, again, like I approach this with a more

Marie Vigouroux:

theoretical view, and it like it's in line with basically

Marie Vigouroux:

every single account of of like patient experience that that

Marie Vigouroux:

I've read so far.

Jeremy Greer:

It's It feels very real. It's also interesting. I

Jeremy Greer:

didn't really notice this until I had cancer. How often cancer

Jeremy Greer:

is used as motivation, character motivation and TV shows. Man,

Jeremy Greer:

is, like, I rewatched the first Deadpool movie in preparation

Jeremy Greer:

for the new one. Was like, Oh yeah, I forgot that his whole

Jeremy Greer:

deal is that he has like, cancer, and he gets like, so sad

Jeremy Greer:

about it that he wants to run away from his wife, like,

Jeremy Greer:

literally, like Bella is doing here. Like Bella and Deadpool

Jeremy Greer:

are going through the same shit.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, exactly. And it's it anyway, I have a lot

Marie Vigouroux:

of thoughts about using - because, I mean, I see in I see

Marie Vigouroux:

cancer also, like, as a as an illness, and obviously, which

Marie Vigouroux:

can then also be talked about as a disability, and the amount of

Marie Vigouroux:

times that disability is used, like to motivate a character,

Marie Vigouroux:

and a lot of the times it's not done well at all, right, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

but here I have to say, like, this is, this feels genuine in a

Marie Vigouroux:

way that is truly heartbreaking.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, she feels, she makes it seem like it's like

Jeremy Greer:

she's going through it, and I think that's important. She

Jeremy Greer:

makes it feel truthful, yeah, and she says that, you know,

Jeremy Greer:

it's frustrating too, because she feels fine, which is also a

Jeremy Greer:

thing that I have with like. I've never really actually had

Jeremy Greer:

any negative effects from the cancer. It's been all of the

Jeremy Greer:

stuff we've done since we found the cancer, there's going to be

Jeremy Greer:

the negative effects, which is weird, right? Like, and Hannibal

Jeremy Greer:

says you will feel fine up until the precise moment that you

Jeremy Greer:

don't. And she talks about how boring this story is, because

Jeremy Greer:

the ending is always the same. And you could tell she's just

Jeremy Greer:

frustrated with this general like she's having the ennui from

Jeremy Greer:

having been diagnosed, right? She's, she's, she's really

Jeremy Greer:

having an existential crisis about it.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, and I think especially, like, because,

Marie Vigouroux:

I mean, the reality is, she's, do we know how long exactly

Marie Vigouroux:

she's known at this point in the episode?

Jeremy Greer:

She says, she's, at this episode, at this point

Jeremy Greer:

in the episode? No, but she says 12 weeks later.

Marie Vigouroux:

Twelve weeks, right? Like, it's still, I mean,

Marie Vigouroux:

I'm sorry, but like, three months into knowing that you

Marie Vigouroux:

have, you know, cancer, it's, it's like, you still haven't

Marie Vigouroux:

gotten used to the idea, right?

Jeremy Greer:

It's brand new that first month you were not

Jeremy Greer:

processing anything, right?

Marie Vigouroux:

Exactly.

Jeremy Greer:

Like it's, it's absolutely, those first three

Jeremy Greer:

months, you just don't know.

Marie Vigouroux:

And so, like, I think that she is still very

Marie Vigouroux:

much like trying to navigate her way through her own choices

Marie Vigouroux:

here, right? And I guess, like, my whole thing about my whole

Marie Vigouroux:

thought about what she's saying here, is that I don't think it

Marie Vigouroux:

matters so much how the story ends, especially when you're

Marie Vigouroux:

given that kind of of of diagnosis, but it matters how

Marie Vigouroux:

people who are given this diagnosis are choosing to

Marie Vigouroux:

navigate their own stories.

Jeremy Greer:

Yes. From here we go to will who is awake at

:

35, at night, according to his - clock? I I don't know

:

where I was going with that, his nightstand clock, his alarm

:

clock, on the gun or whatever. And then we see him kind of fade

:

in and out, going to sleep, waking up at 2am and then at 5am

:

and finally he starts drifting off. We see his eyes like moving

:

as if he is in that REM stage. And then he wakes up, and the

:

dogs are barking, and as the camera pulls out, we realize

:

that he's no longer in his bed. He's on the roof of his porch

:

with absolutely no memory of getting going there, and all of

:

the dogs are inside, just like, freaking out because they're

:

worried about him so much.

Marie Vigouroux:

I mean, this is really terrifying, right? Like,

Marie Vigouroux:

it's, it's, it's close to, like, what I was talking about earlier

Marie Vigouroux:

with my sister, and, like, taking the keys to my dad's car,

Marie Vigouroux:

right?

Jeremy Greer:

Absolutely, yeah, it's exactly the same thing. So

Jeremy Greer:

we go for Hannibal's office, where Will is chewing on pills,

Jeremy Greer:

which is another, like TV trope that I don't really like that

Jeremy Greer:

much, but whatever. And saying that he starts, he's beginning

Jeremy Greer:

to dream more, and Hannibal points out that his dreams were

Jeremy Greer:

the last place he felt safe, but no longer.

Marie Vigouroux:

Right, because in a previous episode, like Will

Marie Vigouroux:

is talking about how he's dreaming of, like, seeing his

Marie Vigouroux:

house from above, right? And this is where he feels the

Marie Vigouroux:

safest, and like, this is what he's his body is trying to have

Marie Vigouroux:

him recreate, or having trying to do, I guess, like he ends up

Marie Vigouroux:

trying to get above the house by going on the roof. And I'm, I

Marie Vigouroux:

was, I was writing this this morning, and I'm like, is this

Marie Vigouroux:

will subconscious trying to tell him that he needs to watch over

Marie Vigouroux:

himself, that, like there is great danger in front of him

Marie Vigouroux:

that he's not aware of. And Will anyway, poor Will is just so

Marie Vigouroux:

caught up in his own stuff right now that he's not seeing the

Marie Vigouroux:

danger.

Jeremy Greer:

It's so it's like you just want to reach out and

Jeremy Greer:

give him a hug. Poor Will

Marie Vigouroux:

I know!

Jeremy Greer:

They talk about the angel maker. And Will

Jeremy Greer:

explains the theory of the angel maker looking for quote,

Jeremy Greer:

unquote, naughty people. And there's this scene where Will

Jeremy Greer:

slowly walks towards this statue in Hannibal's office that's of a

Jeremy Greer:

stag, and he talks about how the angel maker's brain is working

Jeremy Greer:

against him, like he's just, like, he's trying to do

Jeremy Greer:

something, but his brain is literally not allowing him to do

Jeremy Greer:

so.

Marie Vigouroux:

I mean, this is also, I think, like, kind of

Marie Vigouroux:

what's going on with Will, right? I'm not too sure in what

Marie Vigouroux:

way maybe his - because, like, his brain and his body seem to

Marie Vigouroux:

have two different agendas at the moment, right? When in - for

Marie Vigouroux:

Will. And this is, I feel like what he isn't quite aware is

Marie Vigouroux:

going on. And

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal begins to compare the two of them, because

Jeremy Greer:

they both are looking for peace the angel maker and Will. And he

Jeremy Greer:

tells Will, like, realize you have a choice. The Angel maker

Jeremy Greer:

will be destroyed by what's in his head. But you don't have to

Jeremy Greer:

be. And then, as this sinks in, Hannibal, and the positioning

Jeremy Greer:

here, I think, is important to talk about, Will is staring at

Jeremy Greer:

the stacks statue that's in Hannibal's office. Hannibal is

Jeremy Greer:

behind him and kind of off to the side, and he literally leans

Jeremy Greer:

over and just gets a big old whiff of Will. And it's, it's

Jeremy Greer:

maybe, like the horniest thing imaginable, right? Like, it's

Jeremy Greer:

incredibly horny, and Will is like, Did you just smell me? And

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal -

Marie Vigouroux:

He was having none of it.

Jeremy Greer:

Like, Will, I couldn't help myself. Like I

Jeremy Greer:

could, I could barely get not to or whatever. And I'm just like,

Jeremy Greer:

Y'all are, y'all are a lot, right? Now, you are absolutely a

Jeremy Greer:

lot. Um.

Marie Vigouroux:

And Hannibal is not happy with what he's

Marie Vigouroux:

smelling.

Jeremy Greer:

No, no. He describes it as he describes it

Jeremy Greer:

as his aftersave of being like it smells like something with a

Jeremy Greer:

ship on the bottle and and this is a line directly from the

Jeremy Greer:

movies and the T - and the books. So this is a thing that

Jeremy Greer:

in this adaptation of the story, they're much more on, like, an

Jeremy Greer:

even keel, right? Like they are. They're kind of partners in

Jeremy Greer:

this. In Red Dragon, it's a different situation. And

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal uses this as a - to try to get inside of Will's head, to

Jeremy Greer:

to try to, like, basically, turn his own insecurities about being

Jeremy Greer:

poor against him, right? Again, just at this point, Hannibal is

Jeremy Greer:

in jail, and Will is like asking for his help, like it's a whole

Jeremy Greer:

situation, so he's just screwing with Will. But here it's much

Jeremy Greer:

more, much, much more horny. It is just incredibly -

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh it is so horny. like that - Yes,

Marie Vigouroux:

absolutely. See, it didn't even like come to my mind that this

Marie Vigouroux:

could have been like a stab at him for, for for being poor,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, this is I just saw it as, like, being incredibly horny.

Jeremy Greer:

That's why I love it. Like they took something

Jeremy Greer:

directly from the books and, like, basically, and, like,

Jeremy Greer:

plopped it over here, but made it completely different, feeling

Jeremy Greer:

like a completely different resonation from this. And it's

Jeremy Greer:

just so good. It's so it's so fantastic.

Marie Vigouroux:

So you said something in the discord that

Marie Vigouroux:

you were gonna work on like a different horny voice for this

Marie Vigouroux:

podcast. And I feel like I do have to bring this up. I was

Marie Vigouroux:

like, please don't.

Jeremy Greer:

I was gonna spare you any horny voices.

Marie Vigouroux:

Keep them for Chris, please.

Jeremy Greer:

Weah, we'll, we'll see if any any wacky voices come

Jeremy Greer:

out, but we'll let it happen naturally. I won't force the

Jeremy Greer:

horny voices to your promise. We have found the crew has found

Jeremy Greer:

the angel maker one Elliot Buddh, and they found him

Jeremy Greer:

through blah, blah, blah, blah, who cares? They also found his

Jeremy Greer:

wife, who says, and they bring her in for an interview, and she

Jeremy Greer:

begins to talk about leaving him after his diagnosis. And she

Jeremy Greer:

describes Elliot pulling away from her, and the family

Jeremy Greer:

becoming a little bit more angry, not wanting her kids

Jeremy Greer:

around that. And she's saying all of this to Will and Jack in

Jeremy Greer:

Jack's office, and Will is here like I'm doing the interview,

Jeremy Greer:

but as she says this, Jack is realizing this is exactly what

Jeremy Greer:

my wife is doing. This is what Bella is doing to me. She's

Jeremy Greer:

pulling away. She's a little snappish. And he has this, like,

Jeremy Greer:

continual revelation. And it's so well done, because even Will

Jeremy Greer:

is looking over, like, What in the fuck are you doing? Man,

Jeremy Greer:

like, we're gonna interview. But this, you know, this is

Jeremy Greer:

completely taken out Jack altogether.

Marie Vigouroux:

I mean, yeah, I think you said it really well,

Marie Vigouroux:

like they're just, there are two conversations happening in this

Marie Vigouroux:

one conversation, in this one scene. And, like, you know,

Marie Vigouroux:

again, like, I'm not particularly interested in,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, the the getting information for the case, but I

Marie Vigouroux:

am very invested in Jack realizing that his wife is very,

Marie Vigouroux:

very sick.

Jeremy Greer:

We get a lot of information about Elliot through

Jeremy Greer:

here. We found out he wasn't religious, but he did have a

Jeremy Greer:

near death experience, and it was at this farm when he grew

Jeremy Greer:

up. So of course, Will and Jack had to the farm, and in the

Jeremy Greer:

farm, they find the very improbable Elliot, who has

Jeremy Greer:

somehow suspended himself in the air and and tore off his back

Jeremy Greer:

skin to make his own wings. And Will says, This is the last one

Jeremy Greer:

he made himself to an angel. And it's -

Marie Vigouroux:

I mean, the logistics of this alone is, is a

Marie Vigouroux:

lot.

Jeremy Greer:

Like, I feel like it's something you'd have to

Jeremy Greer:

practice once you know what I'm saying. And I don't know how you

Jeremy Greer:

would do that. I don't know how you would manage the or, like,

Jeremy Greer:

maybe, maybe he did, maybe, like, the security guard was his

Jeremy Greer:

practice on this right? Like, maybe he made the security guard

Jeremy Greer:

do it. But, like you said earlier, like, I've refused to

Jeremy Greer:

get hung up on this stuff because it just looks cool, like

Jeremy Greer:

it is very improbable, but it's at the same time. Like, sure.

Jeremy Greer:

Like, let's do it.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, there you go.

Jeremy Greer:

Will says this was his choice. And as a strong

Jeremy Greer:

breeze comes through the barn, he tells Jack he may not be

Jeremy Greer:

useful anymore, and they get into this argument where Jack is

Jeremy Greer:

being very manipulative throughout this whole thing,

Jeremy Greer:

Will is expressing like a direct feeling of this is getting

Jeremy Greer:

harder and harder to look at. This is bad for me. And Jack is

Jeremy Greer:

responding with, well, I know what happens when you don't look

Jeremy Greer:

like what happens if you go back to your classroom and more more

Jeremy Greer:

murders happen, that kind of thing, and it's really

Jeremy Greer:

manipulative, like it's not Will's responsibility to save

Jeremy Greer:

every single person ever killed by a serial killer in the United

Jeremy Greer:

States, right? Like, is he's Is he bad for not being in Italy,

Jeremy Greer:

where there's other serial killers, like it just doesn't

Jeremy Greer:

that kind of logic really irritates me, but it works on

Jeremy Greer:

Will, which also we were saying to me.

Marie Vigouroux:

I know same honestly, and I feel like,

Marie Vigouroux:

again, just because of what we're talking about in this

Marie Vigouroux:

episode, like he's literally sorry. I'm getting mad, but like

Marie Vigouroux:

-

Jeremy Greer:

Get mad, let's do it.

Marie Vigouroux:

I'm getting so mad because he's literally

Marie Vigouroux:

trying to reach out, the same way that Beverly said that he

Marie Vigouroux:

should, and he's being honest with Jack, and he's telling him

Marie Vigouroux:

that he's not doing well, and Jack is just so caught up in his

Marie Vigouroux:

own stuff and with his own goals that he actually just doesn't

Marie Vigouroux:

have the capacity to care in the moment, right? And so if we go

Marie Vigouroux:

back to the parallel between like Will and Bella in their

Marie Vigouroux:

relationship to Jack, like, I can't help but see that this is

Marie Vigouroux:

what Bella must have been going through all these years, right?

Marie Vigouroux:

Like an emotionally unavailable spouse, and, you know, like, no

Marie Vigouroux:

wonder she won't tell him she's not okay anymore, because if

Marie Vigouroux:

this is how he reacts when he's being told that, like somebody

Marie Vigouroux:

around him isn't okay, then, like, I don't know, I probably

Marie Vigouroux:

wouldn't want to talk about that with him. With him either.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah it's, um, it's interesting, because

Jeremy Greer:

they've, they've shown us two, three major interactions with

Jeremy Greer:

Jack and Bella. One was in the last episode, where he's like,

Jeremy Greer:

is it too late to have kids? Which I talked a lot about how,

Jeremy Greer:

like, emotionally manipulative that is especially and we didn't

Jeremy Greer:

know she had cancer at the time, right? So can you imagine

Jeremy Greer:

hearing that when you have diagnosed with stage four

Jeremy Greer:

cancer? Like, I just can't imagine how that would make you

Jeremy Greer:

feel. And then we see them eating, which is whatever, and

Jeremy Greer:

then we see them back in the bed where he's he seems like he's an

Jeremy Greer:

emotionally available spouse, right? Like he makes it seem

Jeremy Greer:

like because he's asking questions and doing his thing,

Jeremy Greer:

but at the same time. Like, you get the impression that this

Jeremy Greer:

wasn't always there, or it isn't. He's not always there for

Jeremy Greer:

the reverse so, like, if she reached out to him, he wouldn't

Jeremy Greer:

be there. So it's only important that he gets that emotional

Jeremy Greer:

availability when he wants it. And I'm reading into a lot here,

Jeremy Greer:

and I'm also pulling in a lot of stuff from from Jack Crawford,

Jeremy Greer:

from the books and the movies and things. But we're all right?

Jeremy Greer:

I mean, we both are right.

Marie Vigouroux:

Weah. And the thing is, like, I don't, I mean,

Marie Vigouroux:

you said that something about it looks like he's emotionally

Marie Vigouroux:

available in this moment. But I disagree with that. I don't

Marie Vigouroux:

think so, because he is again, treating her like somebody that

Marie Vigouroux:

he has to interrogate. This is an interrogation. This is an

Marie Vigouroux:

interview. This is not a conversation with your spouse,

Marie Vigouroux:

right? Like, and I think you're the one who said that you're

Marie Vigouroux:

like, I don't talk to my wife that way. And like, Thank God

Marie Vigouroux:

that you don't because, like -

Jeremy Greer:

Probably why I still have a wife.

Marie Vigouroux:

There you go.

Jeremy Greer:

Jack also points out that, you know, Will could

Jeremy Greer:

save someone if he chooses to go to his classroom instead of

Jeremy Greer:

saving people that will sour his classroom. And then he says, I'm

Jeremy Greer:

not your father, I'm not going to tell you what to do. And Will

Jeremy Greer:

says, it feels like that's exactly what you're going to do,

Jeremy Greer:

is tell me what to do again, just emotional, you know,

Jeremy Greer:

manipulative. Jack stocks off. And when Will turns around. He's

Jeremy Greer:

surprised, because Elliot is there, and Elliot says that he

Jeremy Greer:

can see who WillWill is and that He can bring it out. And as we

Jeremy Greer:

as he looks at Will, Will's face is on fire. Oh, my God. He says

Jeremy Greer:

he can get it all the way out. I can give you the majesty of your

Jeremy Greer:

becoming. And then he falls. And then, as Will looks around, we

Jeremy Greer:

realized like he was never there, he's back up in the

Jeremy Greer:

rafters. This was Will's hallucination. I really adore

Jeremy Greer:

this, because Will is obviously hallucinating. This idea that he

Jeremy Greer:

is has this inside him now, right? It's something that we've

Jeremy Greer:

seen through since the beginning of the episode when he murdered

Jeremy Greer:

Garrett Jacob Hobbs. So he's worried about killing somebody.

Jeremy Greer:

He's worried about becoming somebody who likes killing

Jeremy Greer:

that's the thing that he told Hannibal while they were at

Jeremy Greer:

therapy in episode two or three. So him hallucinating this is a a

Jeremy Greer:

sign of just how bad shit has gotten for Will's brain and B

Jeremy Greer:

just thematically resonate with everything else that we've been

Jeremy Greer:

talking about throughout this whole episode.

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh my god. So again, like I'm watching this

Marie Vigouroux:

for the first time here, and I'm just sitting at the edge of my

Marie Vigouroux:

seat watching, like Elliot, and we get a point of view from

Marie Vigouroux:

Elliot, right? Like we see Will's face on fire. And I'm

Marie Vigouroux:

like, Oh, my God, is he still alive? What is happening? And

Marie Vigouroux:

then you see that. It's like a hallucination. And it's like,

Marie Vigouroux:

this was so reminiscent of that first episode, like when Hobbes

Marie Vigouroux:

said, I see you, because I know that I've gone back and forth

Marie Vigouroux:

about, like, is that something that really happened, or is that

Marie Vigouroux:

something that Will imagined and like, I don't know if this is

Marie Vigouroux:

Will being so rattled by Garrett Jacob Hobbs's words that he's

Marie Vigouroux:

kind of like letting that infiltrate his brain, um, or, or

Marie Vigouroux:

if he just dreamt up that first I see you like he's dreaming up

Marie Vigouroux:

this one, and I don't know which one it is at this point in my

Marie Vigouroux:

viewing, to be entirely honest with you. And like that is a

Marie Vigouroux:

testament to how good this show is.

Jeremy Greer:

So we got a note from a listener, and I haven't

Jeremy Greer:

gone back to confirm this, but I usually trust the instincts of

Jeremy Greer:

the listeners. A lot of times they are, they are. Have watched

Jeremy Greer:

the show way more than I have, but they were asking us. They

Jeremy Greer:

were sending a very polite correction because we've been

Jeremy Greer:

referring to Hodd's last words as I see you. And apparently he

Jeremy Greer:

just says, See, as with a question mark, which they were

Jeremy Greer:

saying, can completely change kind of the intonation of the

Jeremy Greer:

whole thing. And -

Marie Vigouroux:

No way, really?

Jeremy Greer:

And I haven't gone back to that first episode to

Jeremy Greer:

find out. I went back to my notes on that first episode, and

Jeremy Greer:

I definitely wrote down ICU, so I don't know, and I haven't

Jeremy Greer:

looked at the script or anything like that. Again, have not

Jeremy Greer:

confirmed it. I feel like, and I wanted to point bring it up,

Jeremy Greer:

just because it's a very polite correction, and I like to bring

Jeremy Greer:

this up. So thank you. But also, I feel like we were getting even

Jeremy Greer:

that we had, like, the extra words in there. I feel like

Jeremy Greer:

we're getting the exact same thing. I feel like we're sure

Jeremy Greer:

we're still it's showing us exactly like you're saying, like

Jeremy Greer:

he's, he's so worried, like he's, he's so rattled that it

Jeremy Greer:

all of this is in his brain, and it's so I feel like we're

Jeremy Greer:

getting the same thing. I need to go back to that first episode

Jeremy Greer:

and watch but, yeah.

Marie Vigouroux:

This is blowing my mind the same way that when a

Marie Vigouroux:

listener told me that Mary in Supernatural like Mary's like,

Marie Vigouroux:

sleep robe isn't white, it's actually pink in the first

Marie Vigouroux:

episode.

Jeremy Greer:

Oh yeah, absolutely I know that because I

Jeremy Greer:

used it in so many music videos.

Marie Vigouroux:

Like my mind is blown.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, this is like seeing the arrow in the FedEx

Jeremy Greer:

logo, right? That you'll never, you'll never be able to unsee

Jeremy Greer:

it.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, there you go.

Jeremy Greer:

Jack is waiting outside Hannibal's office as

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal opens the door and is escorting Bella out. So he is he

Jeremy Greer:

has caught his wife in the act. She even says, like, did you

Jeremy Greer:

know I was here? Did you follow me? Like, kind of asking, you

Jeremy Greer:

know, are you intruding on my privacy? And then she looks at

Jeremy Greer:

his face and realize that he's figured it out. And it turns out

Jeremy Greer:

she's been hiding stage four lung cancer for 12 weeks. And

Jeremy Greer:

they share kind of a like a rueful chuckle when he says, you

Jeremy Greer:

know, you don't even smoke. And she tells him at stage four, and

Jeremy Greer:

says, like, we know there's no stage five, we see him extremely

Jeremy Greer:

distraught, which is, which is very weird, because I think

Jeremy Greer:

throughout this episode, it's one of the things I like about

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal a lot. Like throughout this episode, we've been looking

Jeremy Greer:

at Jack as not necessarily a villain, but not necessarily

Jeremy Greer:

like the nicest guy, but even the nicest guy would would take

Jeremy Greer:

this news pretty poorly, so, but it's, but it's weird to see him

Jeremy Greer:

distraught. It's weird to have any kind of empathy or sympathy

Jeremy Greer:

for him at all,

Marie Vigouroux:

Well. So that's the thing. Like, as much as I

Marie Vigouroux:

don't, you know, like, I'm not saying that she's justified in

Marie Vigouroux:

hiding this from him, like I do feel, you know, again, in a

Marie Vigouroux:

marriage, you this is the kind of information that perhaps you

Marie Vigouroux:

should share with your spouse. But I do understand the

Marie Vigouroux:

behavior, like where it comes from, and I can empathize with

Marie Vigouroux:

it, and I also empathize with Jack, who is kind of going

Marie Vigouroux:

through this ordeal of like realizing that his wife kept

Marie Vigouroux:

this huge thing from him for three months. And I can't help

Marie Vigouroux:

but feel like, you know you're kind of reaping what you've

Marie Vigouroux:

sowed in this relationship this entire time, right? Like, if

Marie Vigouroux:

you're emotionally unavailable for your spouse for like, the

Marie Vigouroux:

duration of your marriage, well this is the kind of shit that

Marie Vigouroux:

you're gonna get in return, and it's not nice and it's not fun,

Marie Vigouroux:

but, like, I don't know. Man, just desserts seems to be like a

Marie Vigouroux:

theme in all of these episodes so far. And I feel like this is

Marie Vigouroux:

a -

Jeremy Greer:

Food pun not intended

Marie Vigouroux:

I know, right? But this, this feels like, you

Marie Vigouroux:

know, a very bitter just desserts, right?

Jeremy Greer:

This is, this is a really complicated topic, I

Jeremy Greer:

think. So it's, I think back to, like, when I first got on

Jeremy Greer:

Tiktok, and I saw videos on Tiktok of people saying, like

Jeremy Greer:

men, you need to pay attention to your wife and have an

Jeremy Greer:

interest in what she has an interest in. Because if she

Jeremy Greer:

doesn't, if she stops talking to you about it, that's because

Jeremy Greer:

she's talking to someone else about it. And they were

Jeremy Greer:

presenting this as if it was, like, news, new news. And I'm

Jeremy Greer:

like, so you guys, like, there's guys out there that aren't just

Jeremy Greer:

listening to what your wife is talking about and taking an

Jeremy Greer:

interest in it. Like, do you like your wife? Like, it was

Jeremy Greer:

that kind of thing of just like, realizing, like, so people are

Jeremy Greer:

out there, like, literally not. Okay, well then, yeah, then you

Jeremy Greer:

start seeing that emotional distance. And obviously, I think

Jeremy Greer:

that's happened here with Jack and Bella, and it's really

Jeremy Greer:

difficult for me to justify Bella not telling Jack about her

Jeremy Greer:

diagnosis as somebody who like in a real awkward way, because

Jeremy Greer:

everything's on apps now, like, learned his diagnosis by

Jeremy Greer:

himself. Like, I got a I got an email, right? And it was like,

Jeremy Greer:

what? And then, like, two seconds later, I get a phone

Jeremy Greer:

call from my doctor, like, can you come in? And I'm like, Okay,

Jeremy Greer:

so what I just readis 100% true. But like, Autumn was right there

Jeremy Greer:

with me. She was literally, like, next to me, because I was

Jeremy Greer:

like, I need you to come here and read this. And like, she was

Jeremy Greer:

standing next to me as the doctor came up, you know, the as

Jeremy Greer:

the doctor called me, and we worked through all of this

Jeremy Greer:

together. She's been like an amazing person, an amazing level

Jeremy Greer:

of support, every infusion, like every appointment, all of that

Jeremy Greer:

stuff. And I can't imagine having gone through this without

Jeremy Greer:

that. So when I when I first saw this, as I was watching it

Jeremy Greer:

again, I was. Like, well, I feel like Bella is being a little

Jeremy Greer:

selfish here by not sharing this, right, by not and also by

Jeremy Greer:

not, like, sharing in the treatment. When she says, You

Jeremy Greer:

know, I'm not going to have treatment. And he says, Do I get

Jeremy Greer:

a say in this? And she just says, A flat No. It was never

Jeremy Greer:

really a question for me, because, like, we, we, there was

Jeremy Greer:

things to do that would actively improve stuff. So like, we were

Jeremy Greer:

going to go through with that, but that would have been a

Jeremy Greer:

conversation like me and Autumn would have gone through that,

Jeremy Greer:

that whole conversation as I watched it for a second time, to

Jeremy Greer:

make notes on it, I felt a little bit less like she was

Jeremy Greer:

being selfish, but also like, I can totally recognize the

Jeremy Greer:

instinct to not want to tell anybody, and it's for the thing

Jeremy Greer:

that comes up a little later when he, like, tries to comfort

Jeremy Greer:

her, and she's like, you're not going to be able to comfort me.

Jeremy Greer:

I know you need to do that, but I can't give that to you,

Jeremy Greer:

because, as you find out, when you're diagnosed, like people

Jeremy Greer:

ask questions and that's what they they want to be reassured,

Jeremy Greer:

like it's, it's way more about their emotions than your own.

Jeremy Greer:

And I talked about this a little early, when she talked about

Jeremy Greer:

shrinking because of that. Like you're you start shrinking down

Jeremy Greer:

the people that you talk to and the people that you tell because

Jeremy Greer:

they it's so much emotional labor to, I know that's a phrase

Jeremy Greer:

that's been abused, but it is. It's emotional labor to, like,

Jeremy Greer:

call up every single cousin or aunt or uncle and tell them,

Jeremy Greer:

Hey, we got this done, and we're gonna about to do this. And

Jeremy Greer:

well, are you doing okay? Can I do anything? No, we're fine.

Jeremy Greer:

Like, that conversation just as it just takes forever with with

Jeremy Greer:

people. And I know I'm kind of rambling at this point, but

Jeremy Greer:

it's, it's, it's something that I really wanted to hit with this

Jeremy Greer:

episode, especially with this conversation, because it is

Jeremy Greer:

very, very complicated. I waited for a while to tell other people

Jeremy Greer:

outside of my family. I waited for a while to tell extended

Jeremy Greer:

family, like, I even waited for like, a week to tell, like,

Jeremy Greer:

very, very close family, because we didn't know, we didn't know

Jeremy Greer:

anything. So it's, it's, it's watching Bella in this situation

Jeremy Greer:

I have a lot of empathy for and then in our conversation with

Jeremy Greer:

this episode of kind of realizing, oh yeah, Jack's

Jeremy Greer:

probably this is not like a first time thing. He's probably

Jeremy Greer:

been distant with her this entire relationship. And then

Jeremy Greer:

realizing what that must be like to get this diagnosed and

Jeremy Greer:

realize, like, I can't go to him, like he's got too much

Jeremy Greer:

other stuff to worry about. He's never been there for me

Jeremy Greer:

emotionally for previous stuff. Why would he be there for me

Jeremy Greer:

now? And he literally resents him for that, and just

Jeremy Greer:

understanding that fully. But man, it's so difficult. It's

Jeremy Greer:

such a difficult thing, because it is. It's terrifying. It's a

Jeremy Greer:

very scary diagnosis.

Marie Vigouroux:

Of course. When my mom got her stage four breast

Marie Vigouroux:

cancer diagnosis, she started a WhatsApp group chat with all of

Marie Vigouroux:

the family members that she wanted to keep in touch with, or

Marie Vigouroux:

like all of the ones that she wanted to give updates to. And

Marie Vigouroux:

she was like, I will give updates in this group chat. And

Marie Vigouroux:

if you have questions, you can ask them in this group chat, but

Marie Vigouroux:

I will not be answering questions.

Jeremy Greer:

I don't want direct text about this.

Marie Vigouroux:

Exactly.

Jeremy Greer:

Feel free to text me about the TV show Hannibal,

Jeremy Greer:

but nothing else.

Marie Vigouroux:

Exactly. And she was like, I would, you know,

Marie Vigouroux:

appreciate if you could let other people know when they're

Marie Vigouroux:

asking what's going on. I have no problem with you giving out

Marie Vigouroux:

this information, but I do not want to be explaining this any

Marie Vigouroux:

more than I have to. So I, you know, obviously, like, I took

Marie Vigouroux:

her to all of her chemo appointments because I worked in

Marie Vigouroux:

the hospital where she was getting her treatment. And so,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, I knew I was, like, there. But apart from that, like, she

Marie Vigouroux:

basically didn't talk to anybody about it, except in this

Marie Vigouroux:

Whatsapp group chat, which I thought I was like, good job,

Marie Vigouroux:

queen, you did, you know? Doing things on your own terms, I

Marie Vigouroux:

think is so so so important. When so much of this is out of

Marie Vigouroux:

your control, right? Like, regaining some control over some

Marie Vigouroux:

things is so so so important.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah I don't want to talk. This is going to sound

Jeremy Greer:

negative of my father, but I don't mean it to be. But like,

Jeremy Greer:

he had gone through a cancer thing, and he had went through

Jeremy Greer:

like, a specific he went to a specific place, like a cancer

Jeremy Greer:

treatment center, and he was like, when he heard the news

Jeremy Greer:

about me, he was like, We got to get you here. They're going to

Jeremy Greer:

fix you. And I was like, Dude, there's not that, doesn't we're

Jeremy Greer:

not at that stage. Like, but he was, he was like, no, no, they

Jeremy Greer:

fixed me. They'll fix you. So he was, you know, kind of trying.

Jeremy Greer:

To push that a little bit little bit. And it was one of those

Jeremy Greer:

things where I was just like, look like, we're gonna consider

Jeremy Greer:

all the options, but I'm making my own decisions. Like, there's

Jeremy Greer:

no way that I can can do that. And again, he just wanted me to

Jeremy Greer:

be healthy and, well, right? Like, that's not, that's an

Jeremy Greer:

instinct that a father would have, not trying to say anything

Jeremy Greer:

negative about him, like, or anything. I'll save that for

Jeremy Greer:

therapy.

Marie Vigouroux:

Even if you did, like, it'd be okay, right?

Marie Vigouroux:

Like, no judgment there for me, of all people.

Jeremy Greer:

But you know, it's, it's having that, that

Jeremy Greer:

ability to make those decisions on your own, and again, to bring

Jeremy Greer:

it back here, like you talked about, you know, your mom, I'm

Jeremy Greer:

going back to the shell thing, and I'm thinking about, like, a

Jeremy Greer:

shell closing, and thinking about, you know, this thing

Jeremy Greer:

becoming larger while I grow grew smaller. And think about

Jeremy Greer:

how I, you know, cut myself off from regular interaction with

Jeremy Greer:

with friends and family to so I didn't have to have that right.

Jeremy Greer:

Like I drew myself inside, much like, you know, I was about to

Jeremy Greer:

say coquillé.

Marie Vigouroux:

I mean, I feel like you should call it a

Marie Vigouroux:

coquillé from now on, because that's what I'm gonna be doing.

Jeremy Greer:

So yeah, that's a long conversation about

Jeremy Greer:

something that's not really related directly to Hannibal,

Jeremy Greer:

but I think it's like they treat it with such importance and

Jeremy Greer:

grace in the show that I felt like we should talk about it as

Jeremy Greer:

well. And it's something obviously that's very close to

Jeremy Greer:

your heart with your heart with your mom, and it's very close to

Jeremy Greer:

my heart, because, you know, that's where some of the cancer

Jeremy Greer:

is, but it's something I wanted to take the time to do. So it

Jeremy Greer:

feels weird to, like, move on from this, but like, it's -

Marie Vigouroux:

Well I mean, it to segue a little bit back into

Marie Vigouroux:

the show, like, the fact that she is saying that she's

Marie Vigouroux:

refusing chemo and that he doesn't get a say over it. You

Marie Vigouroux:

know, I think that there's, and I know that there are a lot of

Marie Vigouroux:

people who are going to disagree with me on this, but I think

Marie Vigouroux:

that, I think that that's a wonderful thing to be able to

Marie Vigouroux:

say. This is how I want to deal with this, right? This is how I

Marie Vigouroux:

want to to navigate this particular story, like, I don't

Marie Vigouroux:

want chemo, knowing what I know about my particular diagnosis,

Marie Vigouroux:

right? I think also, one of the things that happens when you

Marie Vigouroux:

have cancer, when you have a loved one with cancer, everybody

Marie Vigouroux:

is going to share their stories of their loved one with cancer,

Marie Vigouroux:

right? And it's going to be either like, oh yeah, she died

Marie Vigouroux:

in two months, or like, oh yeah. Like, the, you know, like with

Marie Vigouroux:

your dad, like they were able to fix me, and it's like, yes, but

Marie Vigouroux:

this is not the same thing, right? And so only the person

Marie Vigouroux:

with the diagnosis, along with, you know, whoever they choose to

Marie Vigouroux:

involve in the in that particular decision, can make

Marie Vigouroux:

decisions about their own health, their own body, and what

Marie Vigouroux:

they decide to do.

Jeremy Greer:

It's, um, and it, I think the reason that that

Jeremy Greer:

opinion might be unpopular is because people want their family

Jeremy Greer:

to survive, right, like, and they and it's, it's difficult to

Jeremy Greer:

hear that decision of and it's difficult to see that I hate the

Jeremy Greer:

fact that even this is even before it was diagnosed. I hate

Jeremy Greer:

the fact that cancer is like, kind of cast in this like fight

Jeremy Greer:

kind of context of, like, we're battling cancer, we won. We

Jeremy Greer:

kicked cancer's ass. We're gonna cancer up. Like, it's not, you

Jeremy Greer:

know, like, a, I don't even know what. I don't even know anything

Jeremy Greer:

we do that to, like, I don't understand, like, it's not an

Jeremy Greer:

enemy, right? Like it's not, it's not -

Marie Vigouroux:

Well it's the war metaphors, right? Like, when

Marie Vigouroux:

it comes to illness and to cancer, when the reality, and

Marie Vigouroux:

actually, I have written about thison a professional level -

Jeremy Greer:

What do you do? Mary, I don't understand.

Marie Vigouroux:

I talk about, like, literally, the philosophy

Marie Vigouroux:

behind health and how we experience that, right, and

Marie Vigouroux:

illness and all that stuff. That's literally what I do. So

Marie Vigouroux:

it's a little bit esoteric, but it's a lot of it's a lot of

Marie Vigouroux:

really interesting stuff. I was gonna say a lot of fun, but

Marie Vigouroux:

really, no, like, I read about human suffering every single

Marie Vigouroux:

day, very depressing, but I - there is actually a lot of

Marie Vigouroux:

literature out there that says that it's not particularly

Marie Vigouroux:

helpful. At the same time, if somebody wants to describe

Marie Vigouroux:

themselves as like a cancer fighter, I will never take that

Marie Vigouroux:

away from them, because that's how they decide to talk about

Marie Vigouroux:

themselves. But when it comes to health and illness, like it's

Marie Vigouroux:

much more of a wager, right? Like, you will do everything

Marie Vigouroux:

that you can to put the odds in your favor, but at the end of

Marie Vigouroux:

the day, there is a little bit of like out of your controlness

Marie Vigouroux:

that comes into play, and a lot of it actually. And so, like I

Marie Vigouroux:

said, what's really important is how you choose to navigate the

Marie Vigouroux:

situation.

Jeremy Greer:

And to end the scene. Bella says she's getting

Jeremy Greer:

emotional at this point that she she didn't want their lives to

Jeremy Greer:

change, but she didn't count on how much cancer would change

Jeremy Greer:

her. And they hold hands, and the scene changes. And this is

Jeremy Greer:

something also that I think about quite a bit, because it's

Jeremy Greer:

it's - as a relatively young person to have cancer, you know,

Jeremy Greer:

it was a challenge to get to a point where I'm not feeling like

Jeremy Greer:

I'm taking something away from my partner by having cancer, and

Jeremy Greer:

she never for a minute thought that, right? But for me, I'm

Jeremy Greer:

like, Oh, now we can't travel. Now we can't do I was looking at

Jeremy Greer:

it from all from a negative space of now we can't do this.

Jeremy Greer:

Now we have to do that. Like, now you have to be with me at

Jeremy Greer:

these infusions. And now we're, like, a year later, I'm like,

Jeremy Greer:

oh, yeah, we can just go to Boston. That's no problem. I'm

Jeremy Greer:

okay. We went to Italy for nine days, like, let's rock, let's

Jeremy Greer:

let's do this. But I think especially early in the

Jeremy Greer:

diagnosis, it's hard to get over this. It's hard to not think

Jeremy Greer:

about those things negatively. And then we go back to Quantico,

Jeremy Greer:

where Will kind of stops outside of Jack's office, and he goes

Jeremy Greer:

in, he just tells jack that he's not going to leave that he

Jeremy Greer:

refuses to leave until Jack says something, and he sits down,

Jeremy Greer:

kind of a couple of spaces from Jack, as Jack is just looking

Jeremy Greer:

into space, and the camera, like slowly, you know, pans over just

Jeremy Greer:

until Jack is just in the frame. And that's where the episode

Jeremy Greer:

ends. And Autumn pointed out, like, this is almost a direct

Jeremy Greer:

callback to what Beverly asked to do, of will earlier, right,

Jeremy Greer:

of just to ask if somebody was okay, and I didn't. I didn't

Jeremy Greer:

even pick up on this. So props to autumn.

Marie Vigouroux:

Autumn is on point. Like, absolutely, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

Will really heard Beverly and what she was saying, and I

Marie Vigouroux:

wonder, I kind of wonder how that's going to change the

Marie Vigouroux:

relationship and hopefully make it evolve into, like a

Marie Vigouroux:

friendship. Because I really, I really think that Beverly is

Marie Vigouroux:

really good for Will. And also, like, just to kind of close this

Marie Vigouroux:

out, like, Will is there for Jack, even though Jack was not

Marie Vigouroux:

there for him when he needed it, right? And I think that, again,

Marie Vigouroux:

that kind of goes to show the kind of person that Jack has

Marie Vigouroux:

been, because Jack now has the opportunity to change, right?

Jeremy Greer:

Yes.

Marie Vigouroux:

This was like a wake up call for him. So

Marie Vigouroux:

hopefully we'll see change, because I believe that people

Marie Vigouroux:

can change, even though, unfortunately, they often choose

Marie Vigouroux:

not to. And we'll see what happens with - I'll see what

Marie Vigouroux:

happens with Jack, because you probably all know already.

Jeremy Greer:

A lot of people listening already know, but

Jeremy Greer:

yeah, I'm also curious to see, like, if this is going to have

Jeremy Greer:

any kind of direct effect on Jack's treatment of Will

Jeremy Greer:

specifically, yeah, like, will he be softer on Will, since he's

Jeremy Greer:

going to have to be softer, quote, unquote, on his wife. And

Jeremy Greer:

yeah, and the episode is, here we get our credits. I feel like

Jeremy Greer:

this is a, this is a really great episode. It's weird to

Jeremy Greer:

return to this episode after so long and have it be so

Jeremy Greer:

significantly about cancer, since it's such a huge thing in

Jeremy Greer:

my life now, and it was, it was good to talk about all of that

Jeremy Greer:

stuff, everything. It's interesting. Like, I'm watching

Jeremy Greer:

this and I'm remembering the quote that we put in the first

Jeremy Greer:

episode about the show, like realizing the creators of the

Jeremy Greer:

show realizing that it wasn't a monster of the week format, that

Jeremy Greer:

there was something better there. And the stuff that I tend

Jeremy Greer:

to remember about Hannibal episodes are like these

Jeremy Greer:

grotesque and artistic kills, like, I will never forget the

Jeremy Greer:

two winged people at the bottom of the bed, right? But at the

Jeremy Greer:

same time as we're discussing these episodes, how it's

Jeremy Greer:

fascinating how little that matters to me, like it's all

Jeremy Greer:

just like noise in the background and like fodder for

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal and Will to talk about.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah well, it's funny. I think there was, you

Marie Vigouroux:

were talking on Twitter with somebody who was saying that,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, Hannibal was like a bait and switch in that way, right

Marie Vigouroux:

where, like they appeared to be, like this Criminal Minds type

Marie Vigouroux:

thing, but at the end of the day, like it was something so

Marie Vigouroux:

much more than that. And, and I think that this is, again, like,

Marie Vigouroux:

it's speaking to two different types of audiences, right? I

Marie Vigouroux:

think it's, it's doing that really well, where it's doing

Marie Vigouroux:

the the the investigation thing, but it's also actually focusing

Marie Vigouroux:

on something else. And I just, I'm so interested in this,

Marie Vigouroux:

something else, that, like, yes, the winged people, the skinned

Marie Vigouroux:

winged people, are definitely present. But like, what comes

Marie Vigouroux:

out for me, of this episode is, like, Hannibal's sniffing Will.

Marie Vigouroux:

And I'm just, like, horny boy.

Jeremy Greer:

What are you doing? How many people do you

Jeremy Greer:

sniff like that? Like, even with Bella, like, if you compare it,

Jeremy Greer:

though, like, it's like, he just, like, leaned over

Jeremy Greer:

naturally and was like, Oh, I'm gonna take a whiff, right? Like,

Jeremy Greer:

but with Will, like he leaned in and took a whiff.

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh yes. He closes his eyes again. I've said

Marie Vigouroux:

this in the last episode, but I didn't feel like what he when he

Marie Vigouroux:

smelled Bella, of course, like blanket creepy, but not sexually

Marie Vigouroux:

creepy, which it could have been, but it's not. When He

Marie Vigouroux:

sniffed will sexually creepy, hundo P.

Jeremy Greer:

100% I'm so I'm gonna put this here instead of

Jeremy Greer:

the review section. So excited about the next episode. We have

Jeremy Greer:

some we're gonna be introduced to a recurring character that I

Jeremy Greer:

really like, and we're also going to be introduced to a

Jeremy Greer:

guest star and one, Eddie Izzard, who I absolutely adore,

Jeremy Greer:

so I was shocked when he showed up on the show. I think his

Jeremy Greer:

pronouns are he nowadays, right? He's - they've changed them a

Jeremy Greer:

couple of times, so now, I gotta be sure.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yes there you go. There. I think there's a

Marie Vigouroux:

fluidity there that's pretty cool.

Jeremy Greer:

I'lluse they. But I was shocked when they showed

Jeremy Greer:

up on the show, and I was very excited, because I've watched

Jeremy Greer:

their stand up over the years and watched all that stuff. So

Jeremy Greer:

just wanted to get you excited about it, too.

Marie Vigouroux:

oh, my goodness. Well, I mean, I'm

Marie Vigouroux:

probably gonna go and watch this like immediately.

Jeremy Greer:

Do you have any last thoughts before we go into

Jeremy Greer:

our reviews and our outro?

Marie Vigouroux:

No. More thoughts at this point,

Marie Vigouroux:

completely out of thoughts.

Jeremy Greer:

No thoughts, no thoughts. Just smells.

Jeremy Greer:

Just smells. Go drink some water. People.

Jeremy Greer:

Well, this brings us to our review section. Mary, what is

Jeremy Greer:

your review for this episode?

Marie Vigouroux:

I am going to give it three stars, because as

Marie Vigouroux:

delicious and intriguing as these coquilles, coquillés were

Marie Vigouroux:

-

Jeremy Greer:

Sorry, I'm so sorry.

Marie Vigouroux:

No, no, don't be sorry. It's, it's, it's a

Marie Vigouroux:

done thing now. Coquillé. The meat was a little too raw for my

Marie Vigouroux:

taste.

Jeremy Greer:

And I'm going to give it four stars. I thought

Jeremy Greer:

the Coquilles were fresh, raw and meaty, and if you add a

Jeremy Greer:

little hot sauce, you've got a delicious plate of food. I

Jeremy Greer:

didn't ask you, do you eat shellfish? Like, do you are you

Jeremy Greer:

an oyster kind of person?

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, yeah, I love shellfish, absolutely.

Jeremy Greer:

Same.

Marie Vigouroux:

Although, like, there are some clams that I

Marie Vigouroux:

don't love. But like, I love oysters.

Jeremy Greer:

We down here, like, char grilled oysters are

Jeremy Greer:

kind of a specialty where they just, like, put them on the

Jeremy Greer:

grill, and, like, put something on them, and, like, those are

Jeremy Greer:

absolutely delicious. But I'll eat raw oysters not all day

Jeremy Greer:

long. I have a have, like, a limit, like, I can't do like, a

Jeremy Greer:

dozen by myself, like I can do about three or four with some,

Jeremy Greer:

like, hot sauce and some crackers. And I'm like, okay,

Jeremy Greer:

okay, let's, let's move on to something that doesn't we're

Jeremy Greer:

gonna move on. Thank you everybody for listening. Again.

Jeremy Greer:

We mentioned at the top of the episode that this is the first

Jeremy Greer:

episode we've recorded since we've released it publicly. The

Jeremy Greer:

feedback has been incredible. So we really appreciate everybody

Jeremy Greer:

that has shared the podcast and followed us on various social

Jeremy Greer:

media sites. You can find us at rudeeats.cool that has all of

Jeremy Greer:

the links to everything that you need. And once again, we'll

Jeremy Greer:

thank Jake Lionheart for our music, which is also in

Jeremy Greer:

Bandcamp. By the way, he did a like a six song eight or an

Jeremy Greer:

eight song EP. So if you like the music that we use throughout

Jeremy Greer:

the episode, go check out, out. But there's a link in the show

Jeremy Greer:

notes for it, and alsoAlexDreamsArt for our

Jeremy Greer:

beautiful artwork. Mary, where can you be found on the

Jeremy Greer:

internet? Well,

Marie Vigouroux:

I can be found on twitter, @maryturner_, and

Marie Vigouroux:

you can find the podcast, like you said, at

Jeremy Greer:

You can say carrying wayward like we could.

Jeremy Greer:

Monsteroftheweek.cool. No, that's your podcast. I was like,

Jeremy Greer:

Okay, I can't say carrying wayward. I can't say carrying

Jeremy Greer:

wayward. Lovely. So you can find us at rudeeats.cool. But you can

Jeremy Greer:

also find us on Twitter @rudeeats

Jeremy Greer:

We can promote your show. Go to carryingwayward.com for some

Jeremy Greer:

really deep introspections into every single episode of the TV

Jeremy Greer:

show Supernatural. It's a great podcast. It's my favorite

Jeremy Greer:

supernatural podcast.

Marie Vigouroux:

Thank you so much.

Jeremy Greer:

You can find me @jggreer. You can find all of my

Jeremy Greer:

podcasts about Merlin supernatural, or The X Files at

Jeremy Greer:

creepybutnecessary.cool and until we see you again. Bon

Jeremy Greer:

appetit.

Marie Vigouroux:

Bon appetit, everybody.

Jeremy Greer:

I'm not. I'm not saying anything at all. Um,

Jeremy Greer:

testing, testing, testing.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yes, yes, yes, now I hear you perfect, but it

Marie Vigouroux:

was totally a me issue. 100% yes, that was definitely a user

Marie Vigouroux:

issue also.

Jeremy Greer:

I just hope that we don't have the issues that we

Jeremy Greer:

had yesterday. Oh, my God, totally normal. You know, I

Jeremy Greer:

recorded with Chris for like an hour and a half right after

Jeremy Greer:

that, and had no disconnection issues whatsoever. I don't know

Jeremy Greer:

what was going on.

Marie Vigouroux:

It was just one of those things. Like, you know,

Marie Vigouroux:

when you tell everybody, oh, this place is really, really

Marie Vigouroux:

nice, like, you will have such a good time. Like, the services

Marie Vigouroux:

shit and the food is burnt.

Jeremy Greer:

Oh no, I've brought somebody to the worst

Jeremy Greer:

place imaginable. Yeah, I was, I was, I wasn't upset or anything.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah there you go. I think they liked the idea of the outtakes,

Jeremy Greer:

I just felt bad. And I'm pretty much, I think I'm pretty much

Jeremy Greer:

just going to edit that episode form and just, like, present

Jeremy Greer:

them with basically a finished file, like, put your music on it

Jeremy Greer:

exactly. I'm so sorry about that. There's a bunch of

Jeremy Greer:

outtakes, I guess, that you can use, or not. It's up to you.

Jeremy Greer:

though. So, you know, I think, you know, it'll work, it'll

Jeremy Greer:

work.

Jeremy Greer:

I think outtakes, and this is, you know, my personal bias, but

Jeremy Greer:

because, because I've done it so long with Chris, I think it

Jeremy Greer:

really gets you it gets listeners kind of bonded with

Jeremy Greer:

the with the host a lot more. And like, they want to listen to

Jeremy Greer:

the host talk more if they know that there's more stuff. Like,

Jeremy Greer:

if you get you get you kind of get, they get to know you a

Jeremy Greer:

little bit in a way that they don't normally would. And we do

Jeremy Greer:

some outtakes on like, Days of Future cast, but not, not a lot.

Jeremy Greer:

It's just mostly like, like, you know, someone's someone knocks

Jeremy Greer:

their mic over, not saying who that would be.

Marie Vigouroux:

Okay, then, who is it, Jeremy, I don't know. I

Marie Vigouroux:

don't know who would it be?

Jeremy Greer:

But, yeah. Really use I'm like, it's just become a

Jeremy Greer:

thing with Chris and I were, like, we just talked for 20

Jeremy Greer:

minutes, and it's mostly just me and Chris catching up more than

Jeremy Greer:

anything.

Marie Vigouroux:

So, I mean, that's kind of what it ends up

Marie Vigouroux:

being, right? Like, I find that, sorry, now I'm reading, I'm

Marie Vigouroux:

reading from the document that's there. Okay, good, no, but yeah,

Marie Vigouroux:

I that's one thing that I found really cool. Plus, like, it

Marie Vigouroux:

gives people the option of either listening to it or not. I

Marie Vigouroux:

know that on my first listen of Monster of the Week, yes, I did

Marie Vigouroux:

say first. I didn't really listen to the outtakes. And then

Marie Vigouroux:

after that, when I was like, Oh my God, these guys are actually

Marie Vigouroux:

so cool, I went back, like, listen to the outtakes with the

Marie Vigouroux:

episodes. And it was, like, a really cool experience.

Jeremy Greer:

There's, there's content in there, there's,

Jeremy Greer:

there's hidden stuff. There's a song about werewolves hidden in

Jeremy Greer:

there that I don't know, have any idea what episode it is, but

Jeremy Greer:

some days I'll find it and pull it out and put it on SoundCloud.

Jeremy Greer:

How was your flour guy? How was your flour meeting?

Marie Vigouroux:

You know, I didn't even end up going because

Marie Vigouroux:

I was so tired yesterday, like I just stayed on the couch and I

Marie Vigouroux:

did nothing at all. Like I had so much laundry to do, I did

Marie Vigouroux:

none of that. I had grocery shopping to do. I did none of

Marie Vigouroux:

that. Like nothing got done except, like, just me on the

Marie Vigouroux:

couch watching the Olympics. Like, that is it. I also knit a

Marie Vigouroux:

little bit

Jeremy Greer:

That's fantastic, though, sometimes you need that.

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah,

Marie Vigouroux:

I think I needed it. But, like, it was the

Marie Vigouroux:

first day where I attempted, like, a four kilometer non stop.

Marie Vigouroux:

And-

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, that's a lot.

Marie Vigouroux:

I mean, realizations were made. Like,

Marie Vigouroux:

first off is that I'm so slow that four kilometers is more

Marie Vigouroux:

than 30 minutes for me. And I think running more than 30

Marie Vigouroux:

minutes, I need to carry water with me, especially when it's

Marie Vigouroux:

like 30 degrees Celsius.

Jeremy Greer:

1000 degrees outside. Yeah.

Marie Vigouroux:

And so I was like, no, no. Like, I need to

Marie Vigouroux:

get, like, proper stuff to carry water with me. And so I did

Marie Vigouroux:

that. And so hopefully by next week, when I try to run four

Marie Vigouroux:

kilometers again, I'll have some water with me.

Jeremy Greer:

You won't have to Uber back home after you getthat

Jeremy Greer:

done. , after I recorded with you guys, I recorded with Chris,

Jeremy Greer:

and I went in the living room, and Autumn was watching, I don't

Jeremy Greer:

know if you know the show the doghouse. Do you know that show?

Marie Vigouroux:

No, I don't.

Jeremy Greer:

It started in the UK. It's basically, like, they

Jeremy Greer:

put up. It's a reality show based on a, like, a dog rescue

Jeremy Greer:

site. And so, like, the format of the show is like, three

Jeremy Greer:

different families or couples or individuals come in and, like,

Jeremy Greer:

they select a dog for them, and they meet the dog, and it does

Jeremy Greer:

the dog work for them and all this other stuff. And it's

Jeremy Greer:

adorable. And she found out there was a Australian version.

Jeremy Greer:

There's four seasons of Australian version. So I was

Jeremy Greer:

like, Well, let me get this for you. So she was watching that,

Jeremy Greer:

and I get on the couch, and I'm like, drifting off, and she's

Jeremy Greer:

like, Jeremy, it's the end of your chemo cycle. Just go take a

Jeremy Greer:

nap. It's okay. Like it'sokay, I'm gonna go take a nap. That

Jeremy Greer:

was, that was my Sunday, yeah.

Marie Vigouroux:

That's wonderful. That show it's on,

Marie Vigouroux:

you put it on Plex, is that -

Jeremy Greer:

Yeah, there's a doghouse UK, doghouse Australia,

Jeremy Greer:

and then there's a doghouse New Zealand, which we haven't tapped

Jeremy Greer:

into yet, but all of all that stuff should automatically show

Jeremy Greer:

up on Plex. All that stuff's in there.

Marie Vigouroux:

I need to see this, because this is exactly

Marie Vigouroux:

the kind of show that I love.

Jeremy Greer:

It's, it's adorable. It's like, it will

Jeremy Greer:

make you cry because, like, I don't know if this is a recent

Jeremy Greer:

reality TV show thing, but I've noticed it more and more where,

Jeremy Greer:

like, especially on, like, cooking shows and stuff,

Jeremy Greer:

everybody has, like, their their sob story, kind of, it's almost

Jeremy Greer:

like, especially, like, I was watching Top Chef, and it felt

Jeremy Greer:

like it was the suffering Olympics, almost, where, like,

Jeremy Greer:

everybody had a dead father, or, like, somebody who had cancer or

Jeremy Greer:

whatever. But, like, the doghouse UK is definitely like

Jeremy Greer:

that. They're like, oh, this person lost their husband of 70

Jeremy Greer:

years and wants a companion. And I'm like, that kind of, it's

Jeremy Greer:

just stuff that, like, melts your heart. Yeah, it's very

Jeremy Greer:

cute. It's, it's adorable.

Marie Vigouroux:

It's, it's adorable. Okay, wonderful. So

Marie Vigouroux:

that's gonna be, like, my pre period, I need a cry show.

Jeremy Greer:

I need to get all these emotions out.

Marie Vigouroux:

I need to get all this crying out of my body.

Jeremy Greer:

I think that's what it is she gets. She gets,

Jeremy Greer:

she gets kind of stressed out with her job, and it's so hot

Jeremy Greer:

that it's like, really difficult to ride horses on the weekend,

Jeremy Greer:

which is her, like, main stress reliever. So like, she gets to

Jeremy Greer:

the point where she's, like, she does a bunch of chores, and

Jeremy Greer:

like, she's kind of just stressed out. And she's like, I

Jeremy Greer:

just want to watch this and just just just bask in the glory

Jeremy Greer:

of dogs. Like, I just need, I just need to see a bunch of

Jeremy Greer:

dogs. And then sometimes the dogs, like, run away from them.

Jeremy Greer:

And you're like, you're like, you know, Goldie, come back. Be

Jeremy Greer:

nice. Yelling at the TV.

Marie Vigouroux:

She's like, really rooting for the dogs,

Marie Vigouroux:

right?

Jeremy Greer:

Like, please go up, don't run away. Like, and

Jeremy Greer:

then sometimes the people are like, you know, too aggressive.

Jeremy Greer:

And we're like, just chill out. Just sit down. Why are you

Jeremy Greer:

standing up, scaring the dog? Like, it's a whole process. When

Jeremy Greer:

are the Olympics over? Is that this week it has to be right?

Marie Vigouroux:

We were at the halfway mark yesterday.

Jeremy Greer:

oh, wow. Okay, so there's a lot to get.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, there's still a lot to go. They just

Marie Vigouroux:

started with diving today.

Jeremy Greer:

Nice, nice.

Marie Vigouroux:

Well, I mean, no, there's been diving before,

Marie Vigouroux:

but, like, they, like, the individual competitions have

Marie Vigouroux:

just started, and it's, I mean, diving from the 10 meter

Marie Vigouroux:

platform to me, I don't like, I don't think that there is

Marie Vigouroux:

anything apart from maybe the vault. Like, I don't think that

Marie Vigouroux:

there's anything else that's scarier to me.

Jeremy Greer:

You watch one person hit their head on a

Jeremy Greer:

diving board on the way down. Like, then that's happened a

Jeremy Greer:

couple of times, and you just like, to me, I'm like, Well, I

Jeremy Greer:

will never dive again. You will never, you will never catch me

Jeremy Greer:

in a body of water, sir. Yeah, diving is I like, I think we

Jeremy Greer:

were talking about this other day. Like, all of this stuff is

Jeremy Greer:

so frightening, like just anything the vault, like running

Jeremy Greer:

full speed anywhere, this is terrifying to me, in general,

Jeremy Greer:

that not Not to mention, like the flippity, floppity stuff

Jeremy Greer:

that they do at the end of that process.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yes, I think that you should definitely call

Marie Vigouroux:

the Olympics and be like, I have an idea to rename the vault. The

Marie Vigouroux:

flippity floppity flob.

Jeremy Greer:

I'm sure, I'm sure, because they've got, like,

Jeremy Greer:

Kevin Hart and that dude from SNL Keenan doing like,

Jeremy Greer:

commentary and stuff like, they've got like, a TV show

Jeremy Greer:

basically, where they cover that stuff. I'm sure they're, they're

Jeremy Greer:

making all of those same jokes. I'm sure that they've got that

Jeremy Greer:

under control. So they've got Kevin Hart. They don't need me,

Jeremy Greer:

that's what I'm saying.

Marie Vigouroux:

They do have Kevin Hart. That's true. That's

Marie Vigouroux:

true. He's, he's, uh, I love, actually, I think it's a video

Marie Vigouroux:

of him and Snoop Dogg, and they're watching. There you go.

Marie Vigouroux:

There you go. They're watching- And Kevin Hart is just like

Marie Vigouroux:

losing dog is just, like, amazed, and he's just.

Jeremy Greer:

And the fast forward, like, eight years, and

Jeremy Greer:

like, now we've got Snoop Dogg, like, dressed up in full

Jeremy Greer:

dressage gear, going with Martha Stewart to the dressage stuff,

Jeremy Greer:

like petting horses. He's got his own little Olympic medal.

Jeremy Greer:

Like, it like, it's just, it's just so amazing. Like, that dude

Jeremy Greer:

knows how to brand and knows how to market, like, you would not

Jeremy Greer:

believe.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yes, Oh, for sure. And, I mean, like, just in

Marie Vigouroux:

terms of, like, having fun, right? Like, because, I don't

Marie Vigouroux:

know, I feel like there's so much, not just today, but all

Marie Vigouroux:

the time, about, like, oh, it's, it's cringe to really enjoy

Marie Vigouroux:

something. Snoop Dogg does not care about that.

Jeremy Greer:

If you look at that dude's life, like, why

Jeremy Greer:

would he ever care what anybody thinks about him, right? Like,

Jeremy Greer:

he, I mean, he is, he has come up in the hard times and just

Jeremy Greer:

and made like, a name for himself. And it's just

Jeremy Greer:

remarkable. Like, you know, I don't know. It's just, I just,

Jeremy Greer:

I'm always very, very impressed when, when people get to a

Jeremy Greer:

certain level and they're still cool, like, you look at people

Jeremy Greer:

like, Tom Cruise, and you're like, You're a weirdo. Like, I

Jeremy Greer:

just, I don't know, I don't know how, and I enjoy all of your

Jeremy Greer:

movies, but you're kind of weird.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, Tom Cruise, creepy, Snoop Dogg,

Marie Vigouroux:

cool.

Jeremy Greer:

i did see, Cruise was at - I think it was the

Jeremy Greer:

gymnastics thing. He was at one of the gymnastic events, and,

Jeremy Greer:

like, really, really, like, getting into it and cheering it

Jeremy Greer:

on. So maybe I don't, maybe I'm talking maybe I don't, maybe I'm

Jeremy Greer:

talking out of my ass. Maybe I don't know anything.

Marie Vigouroux:

I dunno, he's a Scientologist, Jeremy.

Jeremy Greer:

I always forget that. I always forget that

Jeremy Greer:

Scientology is a thing in Hollywood.

Marie Vigouroux:

No, no, it's a thing. It's a real thing.

Jeremy Greer:

What a weird cult.

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh man, so weird. We launched officially.

Jeremy Greer:

We did. I want to talk about this in the main

Jeremy Greer:

episode, but, yeah, we were out there. We're it was, it's so

Jeremy Greer:

much fun doing that, like having the YouTube premiere and having,

Jeremy Greer:

like, a bunch of people, like, react to it is so much fun. It

Jeremy Greer:

feels I get, I get nervous about it leading up to it, because I

Jeremy Greer:

feel like it's a little extra, like, hey, it's just a podcast.

Jeremy Greer:

You know what I'm saying, like, but at the same time, if I'm not

Jeremy Greer:

going to put the energy into it, who is going to right? Like, if

Jeremy Greer:

I'm, like, if I'm this excited that I want to do this stuff,

Jeremy Greer:

then I should do it. Like, not like, you know, no cringe. 2024.

Jeremy Greer:

Is what we're going for.

Marie Vigouroux:

But there you go. Like, if Snoop Dogg can get,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, dressed up to go to Olympic events, you can

Marie Vigouroux:

definitely have, like, a YouTube premiere. You know what I mean?

Marie Vigouroux:

Like, I feel like that's okay.

Jeremy Greer:

Yes, yes. If that'll be that'll be our bar

Jeremy Greer:

for the rest of the podcast. Snoop Dogg can do this, then

Jeremy Greer:

Hannibal is allowed to do that.

Marie Vigouroux:

I feel really uncomfortable with this

Marie Vigouroux:

parallel, pretty sure that Snoop Dogg would like to be omitted

Marie Vigouroux:

from this narrative.

Jeremy Greer:

Snoop Dogg does not wish to be associated with

Jeremy Greer:

with any cannibal, with any hannibals or cannibals.

Marie Vigouroux:

No, exactly. There you go.

Jeremy Greer:

Actually, I think he did a track with Hannibal

Jeremy Greer:

Buress, the comedian slash rapper. So maybe, maybe, maybe

Jeremy Greer:

he does associate with Hannibals just not cannibals.

Marie Vigouroux:

There you go. There you go. I think that's

Marie Vigouroux:

fine. I respect that. Oh goodness.

Jeremy Greer:

Mike Eagle put Hannibal brass on a track, and

Jeremy Greer:

he was just a comedian, and he wrapped and he didn't rap very

Jeremy Greer:

well on the track, but then he has become like a rapper, like,

Jeremy Greer:

kind of over the years, like he's gotten better and better at

Jeremy Greer:

it. So he does, like a, kind of a mixed routine, but the first

Jeremy Greer:

track that I ever heard him on, he starts talking about LeBron

Jeremy Greer:

James and taking HDH, he says his hairline is like, your

Jeremy Greer:

hairline is going to fade away if you keep taking the HDH, I

Jeremy Greer:

just now, every time I look at LeBron James, I'm like, where's

Jeremy Greer:

your hairline? Where'd it go?

Jeremy Greer:

Oh, no.

Jeremy Greer:

It's like, it's like, Jared pedal, like his hairline, like

Jeremy Greer:

it just disappeared. Like, where did it go?

Marie Vigouroux:

It disappeared, and then it reappeared, and then

Marie Vigouroux:

now it's disappearing again.

Jeremy Greer:

Not to talk bad about some people's physical

Jeremy Greer:

appearance that they can't really help, but I just always

Jeremy Greer:

thought that HDH line was really, really funny.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, definitely did. I. Did I send

Marie Vigouroux:

you? Did I tell you what my son said this weekend about

Marie Vigouroux:

gymnastics?

Jeremy Greer:

I think you did. But tell me. Tell me. Tell me

Jeremy Greer:

again. Oh, yes, about Simone, right?

Marie Vigouroux:

Yes, yes, exactly. So at the beginning of

Marie Vigouroux:

the Olympics, like, I told him a little bit about Simone Biles

Marie Vigouroux:

and, like, how she's the, like, the greatest gymnast of all

Marie Vigouroux:

times, right? And he's like, Well, that's your opinion. And

Marie Vigouroux:

I'm like, no, no, honey, that is not my opinion, that is fact.

Jeremy Greer:

That's the world's opinion.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, the world's opinion. And so he saw

Marie Vigouroux:

her, he heard, like, the commentators talking about her,

Marie Vigouroux:

and he's like, Oh, you were right. She is the greatest

Marie Vigouroux:

gymnast of all time. Like, yes, that's what I've been saying.

Marie Vigouroux:

Because, like, you know, he's at that age where he's like, I

Marie Vigouroux:

don't know if I entirely trust like you as my parent, because,

Marie Vigouroux:

like, I've just found out that there are other opinions than

Marie Vigouroux:

yours.

Jeremy Greer:

probably starting to form some of his own right.

Jeremy Greer:

So he's like, Well, I think this, no matter what mom says.

Marie Vigouroux:

Exactly, there you go. So he, you know, keeps

Marie Vigouroux:

reminding me that sometimes that these are my opinions, not

Marie Vigouroux:

facts, anyway. And this weekend, we were watching the men's

Marie Vigouroux:

gymnastics, and I was like, look at that. Look at how impressive

Marie Vigouroux:

that is. And he looks up from his Nintendo Switch, and he

Marie Vigouroux:

goes, you know, if, if Simone Biles was was in this, I would

Marie Vigouroux:

watch it, but I'm just not interested.

Jeremy Greer:

Wow, from a skeptic to a full on fan, just

Jeremy Greer:

like that, right?

Marie Vigouroux:

Exactly.

Jeremy Greer:

That's so hilarious. Simone Biles needs to

Jeremy Greer:

be in every event, though, I definitely agree. Like, I don't

Jeremy Greer:

care, she could probably ride a horse. Like, you know what I'm

Jeremy Greer:

saying? Like, she could probably.

Marie Vigouroux:

I'm sure she could. She is tiny, though.

Marie Vigouroux:

Like, she's really, really small. So, like, I mean, I guess

Marie Vigouroux:

that could be arranged, like, with the saddle and stuff.

Jeremy Greer:

Oh yeah. Like, in horse racing, the smaller the

Jeremy Greer:

person the better, right? So, like, all jockeys, in fact,

Jeremy Greer:

there was a reality show about jockeys on the Discovery Channel

Jeremy Greer:

years and years ago. And weirdly enough, like a lot of jockeys

Jeremy Greer:

are from South Louisiana, so it was like people that Autumn knew

Jeremy Greer:

on it, which was weird, or knew about, let me rephrase that,

Jeremy Greer:

knew about, and like, they do a lot of like, horrible things to

Jeremy Greer:

their bodies to make sure they stay under a certain weight and,

Jeremy Greer:

like, certain height and things like that, to make sure.

Jeremy Greer:

Because, like, you know, the the more, the less you weigh, like,

Jeremy Greer:

the faster the horse will run, right? Like, so, like, everybody

Jeremy Greer:

has, like, they weigh themselves at the beginning of every race,

Jeremy Greer:

and like, if they go up a couple of pounds, like, maybe they're

Jeremy Greer:

the person that owns the horse doesn't want them to ride the

Jeremy Greer:

horse anymore, so they're not gonna be paid. And all this

Jeremy Greer:

other stuff. Like, it's, it can be pretty vicious, like it's, it

Jeremy Greer:

seemed like it was not a very fun gig at all.

Marie Vigouroux:

No, I can imagine. I mean, I don't know, I

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah. I mean horse racing in general, I think has a bad rap

Marie Vigouroux:

sometimes.

Jeremy Greer:

Oh yeah, it's borderline abusive to the

Jeremy Greer:

horses. In some cases, like, outright abusive, yeah and yeah,

Jeremy Greer:

it's and, like, at the same time, I love it. I mean, me and

Jeremy Greer:

Autumn, watch it. We used to do a point every year for the

Jeremy Greer:

Kentucky Derby and get dressed up and do all that stuff. But at

Jeremy Greer:

the same time, like, definitely knowledge, like, Oh yeah, you

Jeremy Greer:

shouldn't be treating your horses like that, especially the

Jeremy Greer:

lower end you get. There was a, in fact, right, like, down the

Jeremy Greer:

road and, like, down a side street for me was, I was reading

Jeremy Greer:

the news one day, and it was like, Oh, we picked up. We, you

Jeremy Greer:

know, these people were arrested for animal abuse. And I was

Jeremy Greer:

like, Well, I want to know more about those details. So I

Jeremy Greer:

clicked on the story, and it was literally, like a neighbor who

Jeremy Greer:

had been and I guess they, like, repossessed all of his horses

Jeremy Greer:

and put them into different clinics or whatever. And, yeah,

Jeremy Greer:

it was just really, really weird. So it can be bad, it can

Jeremy Greer:

be definitely bad. In the higher end, you go like, the better the

Jeremy Greer:

horses are treated. But it's still like, this horse is made

Jeremy Greer:

to run. That's what we want it to do.

Marie Vigouroux:

And this kind of touches on, like, some things

Marie Vigouroux:

that we're going to talk about during the episode, which is how

Marie Vigouroux:

to make foie gras.

Jeremy Greer:

It's that's an interesting thing. You want to

Jeremy Greer:

get into it? You want to jump in?

Marie Vigouroux:

Oh, yeah, I'm ready. I'm like, so ready. I'm

Marie Vigouroux:

like, I have lived 100 lifetimes already.

Jeremy Greer:

Autumn was just like, I need you to record so we

Jeremy Greer:

can watch the next one. And now we've done, I don't know when

Jeremy Greer:

this will come out, so I'll just drop a marker in case I need to

Jeremy Greer:

beep it. But now we, Chris and I have started, and so we watched

Jeremy Greer:

the first episode of that, and then recorded, and then we

Jeremy Greer:

watched the second episode. And she was like, I'm really tired

Jeremy Greer:

of this thing where you start me watching shows and I can't binge

Jeremy Greer:

them. She goes, if you weren't, if we weren't watch, if you

Jeremy Greer:

weren't podcasting about it. We would be finished with Hannibal

Jeremy Greer:

and like, on season two of already, like, we would be

Jeremy Greer:

binging these. And I'm like, I'm sorry, we have to go to a

Jeremy Greer:

certain pace. I can only go so fast.

Marie Vigouroux:

Poor autumn. We're like, messing up her

Marie Vigouroux:

watching schedule.

Jeremy Greer:

Her binge watching schedule.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, I know. And I understand that. I

Marie Vigouroux:

understand that deeply.

Jeremy Greer:

Judy, the my video editing person, has already

Jeremy Greer:

finished season one. She just ran through and she's like, I

Jeremy Greer:

can't, I'm not gonna wait for the podcast.

Marie Vigouroux:

I mean, I get it honestly, like, if I wasn't

Marie Vigouroux:

podcasting, I'd be done.

Jeremy Greer:

You'd be on your, like, second or third watch.

Marie Vigouroux:

I know, there you go. I'd be, like, looking

Marie Vigouroux:

for themes now, like overarching themes.

Jeremy Greer:

Finding other Hannibal podcasts.

Marie Vigouroux:

Probably, yeah, I saw I sent you like, two links

Marie Vigouroux:

to two other podcasts, like Hannibal podcasts from Twitter,

Marie Vigouroux:

yeah. But it sort of seems like they both died out. One of them,

Marie Vigouroux:

I think their last tweet was in 2022.

Jeremy Greer:

When I looked on Apple podcasts before we started

Jeremy Greer:

this, I was really surprised there wasn't more of a podcast

Jeremy Greer:

presence. And I guess maybe it's because, like, this show is

Jeremy Greer:

relatively short and the show is over, and so there's like, not,

Jeremy Greer:

there's not, like, a lot to keep podcasts active. Like, you know,

Jeremy Greer:

your podcast is going to be going on for a decade, like,

Jeremy Greer:

right? Like, Carrying wayward is going to be going on for like,

Jeremy Greer:

two decades or something. And Monster of the week was, it was

Jeremy Greer:

around for a long time, like, and so just, I don't know, like,

Jeremy Greer:

I guess at a certain point you're just like, why am I

Jeremy Greer:

updating this Twitter? Like, we've done this.

Marie Vigouroux:

That's very true. So I don't know. I don't

Marie Vigouroux:

know if they continued or if they finished. Actually, maybe

Marie Vigouroux:

that's something to look into.

Jeremy Greer:

So many podcasts start and then just peter out.

Jeremy Greer:

Like, people just don't realize the the amount of effort it goes

Jeremy Greer:

into, exactly. Oh, wow. Me and my friends are funny. We can

Jeremy Greer:

record it and put it on the internet, and then then your

Jeremy Greer:

friends stop hanging out with you, and you're like, oh well,

Jeremy Greer:

we have a, we have a podcast due. And they're like, Yeah, we

Jeremy Greer:

don't want to do that. We just want to hang out.

Marie Vigouroux:

It's like, yes, that is exactly what happened.

Marie Vigouroux:

Yeah, that's what happened, fortunately or unfortunately.

Jeremy Greer:

Autumn and I with the Interview with the Vampire

Jeremy Greer:

podcast, we would like realize, like, oh, we have more fun just

Jeremy Greer:

hanging out than, like, doing a podcast together. This is work.

Jeremy Greer:

We could just hang out. Like, let's have a cocktail and watch

Jeremy Greer:

Interview with the Vampire. Like, what are we doing?

Marie Vigouroux:

eriously? Oh, my God, I completely agree.

Marie Vigouroux:

Completely agree. But this is fun, though. I'm having a lot of

Marie Vigouroux:

fun podcasting about this.

Jeremy Greer:

Absolutely the same, absolutely the same. Yes,

Jeremy Greer:

I love getting into Hannibal like it's so much fun.

Marie Vigouroux:

Okay, hold on. Let me just turn on focus for an

Marie Vigouroux:

hour. Okay, good that I don't get notifications. Okay, I'm

Marie Vigouroux:

ready when You are

Jeremy Greer:

Let's hit it.

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About the Podcast

Show artwork for Rude Eats: A Hannibal Podcast
Rude Eats: A Hannibal Podcast
Feast your ears on Rude Eats, the new podcast that's been simmering in the shadows, where we dissect NBC's Hannibal with dark humor and ominous insights. Hosted by Marie Vigouroux and Jeremy Greer, art by AlexDreamsArt, music by Jake Lionheart.

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About your hosts

Profile picture for Marie Vigouroux

Marie Vigouroux

I used to describe myself as a foodie in the heyday of Instagram food pics.
Profile picture for Jeremy Greer

Jeremy Greer

I would very much like to boop Hannibal on the nose one day.